Balancerland website moved

[Lee Hart]

Hi gang,

Since Geocities has been shut down, Roger Stockton has moved the
Balancerland website to:

http://www3.telus.net/nook/balancerland/

This site provides documentation for my Battery Balancer project. Roger
has done a nice job reorganizing it a bit to make it easier for visitors
to find what they are looking for. You will also be happy to
know that Yahoo's annoying pop-up advertisements on the are gone.

BTW for those that have been patiently waiting: I just finished a
project for a client, and will have the next week or so to catch up on
personal work (like Battery Balancers and Companion boards).
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[AMPhibian]

Minor point, and it could be just me, but I find the graph paper lines in the background distracting and feel they make it more difficult to read.  Maybe they could be removed?

John

Lee Hart wrote:

Hi gang,

Since Geocities has been shut down, Roger Stockton has moved the
Balancerland website to:

http://www3.telus.net/nook/balancerland/

This site provides documentation for my Battery Balancer project. Roger
has done a nice job reorganizing it a bit to make it easier for visitors
to find what they are looking for. You will also be happy to
know that Yahoo's annoying pop-up advertisements on the are gone.

BTW for those that have been patiently waiting: I just finished a
project for a client, and will have the next week or so to catch up on
personal work (like Battery Balancers and Companion boards).
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Bill Dennis]

I've got a 132V pack (148V max) attached to a 1231C controller.  I use a
75W light bulb activated through a relay as the pre-charge.   I'd also
like to power another circuit during pre-charge that pulls around 20mA,
and have it be active until the precharge voltage falls to somewhere in
the 10V-15V range (exact voltage not important).   I'm still a newbie to
circuit design, but would something like this work to power circuit U1
(fixed-width font, please):

     144V
      |
      \  SW (Existing Relay)
       \  
      |                                   5V
      |--/\/\/\----+-------------+        +
      \ 4W Bulb    |             |  12V   |
Bulb  /          \_|_  1N5347    \ Relay  \
75W   \            ^ \ 5W 10V    \ -----|  \
      /           /_\            \        |
      |            |             |        U1
      +------------+-------------+        |
    1231C                                 0V


Thanks.

Bill    

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[Bill Dennis]

Perhaps an opto would work just as well?

     144V
      |
      \  SW-1
       \  
      |                5V
      |--/\/\/\----+    +  
      \ 4W Bulb    |    |
Bulb  /           _|_  /
75W   \   PC847X  \_/ |
      /            |  |      
      |            |   \
      |            |    U1
      +------------+    |
    1231C              0V


Bill

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[Lee Hart]

Bill Dennis wrote:

> Perhaps an opto would work just as well?
>
>      144V
>       |
>       \  SW-1
>        \  
>       |                5V
>       |--/\/\/\----+    +  
>       \ 4W Bulb    |    |
> Bulb  /           _|_  /
> 75W   \   PC847X  \_/ |
>       /            |  |      
>       |            |   \
>       |            |    U1
>       +------------+    |
>     1231C              0V

The 4w bulb has way too low a resistance for the optocoupler's LED. Use
a real resistor that allows around 10ma. 144v/10ma = 14.4k (15k is close
enough). Note that it needs to be at least a 2 watt resistor (144v x
0.01a = 1.44 watts).

But... what exactly does he want to do with the isolated output?
Optocouplers are very low power devices. It could light an LED, but not
pull in a relay or contactor.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Lee Hart]

Bill Dennis wrote:

> I've got a 132V pack (148V max) attached to a 1231C controller.  I use a
> 75W light bulb activated through a relay as the pre-charge.   I'd also
> like to power another circuit during pre-charge that pulls around 20mA,
> and have it be active until the precharge voltage falls to somewhere in
> the 10V-15V range (exact voltage not important).   I'm still a newbie to
> circuit design, but would something like this work to power circuit U1
> (fixed-width font, please):
>
>      144V
>       |
>       \  SW (Existing Relay)
>        \  
>       |                                   5V
>       |--/\/\/\----+-------------+        +
>       \ 4W Bulb    |             |  12V   |
> Bulb  /          \_|_  1N5347    \ Relay  \
> 75W   \            ^ \ 5W 10V    \ -----|  \
>       /           /_\            \        |
>       |            |             |        U1
>       +------------+-------------+        |
>     1231C                                 0V
>
>
> Thanks.

You can also put the relay coil in series with the 75w lamp. The lamp
current is about I = 75w/120v = 0.625 amps. Note that this current is
relatively independent of voltage; it changes perhaps 2:1 for a 10:1
change in voltage.

So, if your relay coil draws 0.1a at 12v, put it in series with the 75w
lamp, with a resistor that draws the other 0.525 amps in parallel with
the relay coil. R = 12v/0.525a = 22 ohms. Note that this will need to be
a 10w resistor; P = 12v x 0.525a = 6.3 watts.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Bill Dennis]

Thanks, Lee.  I just want to power a circuit that draws about 25mA max.
The optos I was looking at had a 50mA constant current rating on both input
and output.

Bill

>Lee Hart wrote:

>But... what exactly does he want to do with the isolated output?
>Optocouplers are very low power devices. It could light an LED, but not
>pull in a relay or contactor.


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[Morgan LaMoore]

However, note how the circuit will work then:

When the precharge relay is off, the auxiliary relay/opto is off. When
the precharge relay is turned on, full voltage is applied to the
circuit, turning on the auxiliary relay. When the pack is about done
precharging, the auxiliary relay coil current is too low and it turns
off.

So if you want to turn on a circuit when the precharge is done, you
would have to use a normally closed relay and include another relay to
keep your circuit from operating when the main and precharge relays
are turned off.

If you just power your switch through the key switch then through your
auxiliary "precharge detect" relay, you'll probably get a brief pulse
after you turn on the key but before the precharge starts. Depending
on the circuit you're powering, this may or may not be a problem.

-Morgan

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:33 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks, Lee.  I just want to power a circuit that draws about 25mA max.
> The optos I was looking at had a 50mA constant current rating on both input
> and output.
>
> Bill

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[Lee Hart]

Morgan LaMoore wrote:

> However, note how the circuit will work then:
>
> When the precharge relay is off, the auxiliary relay/opto is off. When
> the precharge relay is turned on, full voltage is applied to the
> circuit, turning on the auxiliary relay. When the pack is about done
> precharging, the auxiliary relay coil current is too low and it turns
> off.
>
> So if you want to turn on a circuit when the precharge is done, you
> would have to use a normally closed relay and include another relay to
> keep your circuit from operating when the main and precharge relays
> are turned off.
>
> If you just power your switch through the key switch then through your
> auxiliary "precharge detect" relay, you'll probably get a brief pulse
> after you turn on the key but before the precharge starts. Depending
> on the circuit you're powering, this may or may not be a problem.

That's another reason why I was wondering what the output will be used for.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Bill Dennis]

Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> When the precharge relay is off, the auxiliary relay/opto is off. When
>> the precharge relay is turned on, full voltage is applied to the
>> circuit, turning on the auxiliary relay. When the pack is about done
>> precharging, the auxiliary relay coil current is too low and it turns
>> off.
>>    
Yes, that's exactly what I want it to function.
>> If you just power your switch through the key switch then through your
>> auxiliary "precharge detect" relay, you'll probably get a brief pulse
>> after you turn on the key but before the precharge starts. Depending
>> on the circuit you're powering, this may or may not be a problem.
>>    
Sorry, I didn't follow what you're saying here.  What's the pulse you
mention?

Thanks.

Bill

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[Morgan LaMoore]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Bill Dennis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> Sorry, I didn't follow what you're saying here.  What's the pulse you
> mention?

It would really help if you told us what circuit you were going to
control with this; I don't have any context to go by, and I don't want
to just confuse things further.

-Morgan LaMoore

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[Bill Dennis]

Morgan LaMoore wrote:

>It would really help if you told us what circuit you were going to
>control with this


Okay, I was hoping to get this working first because it's kind of
indulgent and silly.  But last week, Lee mentioned playing the Jetson's
theme with a motor.  That got me thinking, wouldn't it be fun if my car
played something when it was pre-charging instead of just flashing a
light--make non-EVers smile when I gave them a ride.

So I went to the Hallmark store and bought one of those greeting cards
where you record your own message.  I made an audio file that starts
with the Jetson's doorbell (you know, "Meet George Jetson!"), followed
by the descending sound of the Jetson's car.  Somewhere in the middle of
that descending car sound, pre-charge should finish and cut off the
recording.  If not, and the pre-charge takes over 8 seconds, then the
end of the message says, "Rut-Roh!").  Here's the .wav file:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/JetsonPrechargeEdited3.wav

The card's COB runs on three 1.5V button cells.  There's just a simple
spring-loaded switch that turns the sound on and off.  So I either want
to replace that switch with a relay, in which case the circuit will be
isolated from the traction pack.  Or optionally, remove the button cells
and replace them with a 5.1V zener, in which case the circuit wouldn't
be isolated from the pack.

Like I said, silly, but it's keeping me entertained working on it.

Bill

> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Bill Dennis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> ...
>> Sorry, I didn't follow what you're saying here.  What's the pulse you
>> mention?
>>    
>
> ; I don't have any context to go by, and I don't want
> to just confuse things further.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
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>
>
>
>  

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[Morgan LaMoore]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Bill Dennis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> Like I said, silly, but it's keeping me entertained working on it.
>
> Bill

OK, that makes sense. An indicator of when precharge is done is a
useful thing, even if it sounds silly.

The "pulse" I was talking about won't apply to you then.

I was thinking maybe you were trying to, for example, automatically
close the main contactor when precharge was done. To do that, you
would need a signal that was off when the car was off or precharging
and turned on when precharge completed. The easiest way to do that is
to use a normally closed relay in the precharge circuit you drew and
control the main contactor by the keyswitch in series with that
normally closed relay. However, that method could create a pulse when
you first turn on the key that could turn on the main relay early,
skipping precharge, depending on how fast the various relays involved
were.

-Morgan LaMoore

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[Lee Hart]

Bill Dennis wrote:
> Okay... Lee mentioned playing the Jetson's theme with a motor.
> So I went to the Hallmark store and bought one of those greeting cards
> where you record your own message.  I made an audio file that starts
> with the Jetson's doorbell (you know, "Meet George Jetson!"), followed
> by the descending sound of the Jetson's car.  Somewhere in the middle of
> that descending car sound, pre-charge should finish and cut off the
> recording.  If not, and the pre-charge takes over 8 seconds, then the
> end of the message says, "Rut-Roh!").  Here's the .wav file:
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/JetsonPrechargeEdited3.wav

I like it! :-) You just may have inspired me to do it as well.

> The card's COB runs on three 1.5V button cells.  There's just a simple
> spring-loaded switch that turns the sound on and off.  So I either want
> to replace that switch with a relay, in which case the circuit will be
> isolated from the traction pack.  Or optionally, remove the button cells
> and replace them with a 5.1V zener, in which case the circuit wouldn't
> be isolated from the pack.

How about this: Get a little reed switch, and use it to replace the
switch in the greeting card. A typical reed switch turns on at something
like 10 AT (10 ampere-turns). If your precharge resistor draws (say) 1
amp, then you just need to make a 10-turn coil around the reed switch,
and it will close when the precharge resistor is drawing current. Adjust
the number of turns to control when the switch turns off.

This gives you an isolated switch output with only one simple cheap part.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Bill Dennis]

Lee Hart wrote:

 >Get a little reed switch...

Okay, I think I'm following you.  I've currently got #14 wire powering
the bulb, which is overkill.  I can replace it with #22 wire, then

   Connect #22 wire to Relay Pin 87, wrap it 10 times around reed
switch, connect other end to bulb positive

Bill
   

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[Lee Hart]

Lee Hart wrote:
>> Get a little reed switch...
>
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Okay, I think I'm following you. I've currently got #14 wire powering
> the bulb, which is overkill. I can replace it with #22 wire, then
> connect #22 wire to Relay Pin 87, wrap it 10 times around reed
> switch, connect other end to bulb positive.

Yes, that's the idea.

If you buy a new reed switch, the specs will tell you the ampere-turns
at which it pulls in. Typical numbers range from 1  AT for tiny reeds to
100 AT for big ones.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Richard Furniss]

Bill Dennis wrote:
> Okay... Lee mentioned playing the Jetson's theme with a motor.
Lee Hart wrote:
I like it! :-) You just may have inspired me to do it as well.

I'm reading this LOL, and thinking you guys have way to much time on your hands.

Have a renewable sustainable energy day

Richard Furniss
Las Vegas NV
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