Batteries in the passenger compartment?

[Heynow]

I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the idea of batteries in the passenger compartment.  I want to be able to keep them in the trunk and under the hood.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  Do some wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better for an EV?

Thanks

Peter

[Randy Eckert]

Pretty easy to put in a wall, (think taxi/cop cars)
Plus that cuts down on heating and cooling needs,
of course I never think about building anything bigger than 2 seats,
I am using a honda hatch back (87) just that way, it is a 2 door 4 seats but
the back ones are coming out.
I have never been one to leave things stock.
I have never lost money on a resale either you just have to do good work, I
also never have paid anyone to work on my cars either,so that's not for
everybody

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Heynow <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the
> idea
> of batteries in the passenger compartment.  I want to be able to keep them
> in the trunk and under the hood.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  Do some
> wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Batteries-in-the-passenger-compartment--tp16924189p16924189.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Lee Hart]

Heynow wrote:
> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the idea
> of batteries in the passenger compartment.  I want to be able to keep them
> in the trunk and under the hood.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  Do some
> wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?

You can put batteries in the passenger compartment; just put them in
closed 6-sided boxes, with a couple vent hoses to the outside and a
small fan.

Wagons generally do have higher load carrying capacities. It's easy to
check by looking at the GVWR on the door label.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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[Roland Wiench]

It is best to have some type of fire wall between the battery box container
and the passenger compartment.  The fire wall between the motor bay and
passenger may not be completely steel.  There are areas in the firewall that
may be plastic like the heater fan units, the heater core covers, and wire
and cable entrances points.

Now is you look at some trunks, the fire wall between the trunk area and the
rear seat may be only a plastic or cloth insulator.  If you use the trunk
method, its is best to install a full piece of metal over this area.

Looking at a pickup with batteries in the box, and if you have a battery
explosion, the rear glass will break up into small pieces and embed into
you.

I am using the pick up method, but I replace or overlay that rear glass with
a piece of 1/4 inch very high impact lexon glass you can get at a glass
shop.

All my batteries are enclose in a two compartments of 1/4 inch fiberglass
sheeting that is reinforce up to 1/2 inch thick or more.  The battery box
covers are stainless full length hinge and double seal when the lids are
close.

A battery box ventilation should be use, where the all plastic totally
enclose fan exhaust the battery box air out from one corner which brings in
fresh air through a filter at the other corner of the box. The exhaust air
goes up in a heavy duty 1/4 inch flex hose.  DO NOT USE THOSE THIN VINYL
HOSES, where the battery fumes will take these out in with a day.

Most important is to have the battery box covers hinge so only the open end
faces away from the passenger compartment.  Plus, do not latch the covers
down, only hinge them, plus as well any other cover.

Back in 1985 I had one defective battery exploded, which also took out 9
other batteries.  The battery covers lefted up, plus also left up the hatch
back cover which blew out the lexon glass all in one piece.  The rear window
lexon glass panel held.

A local battery company slip in 10 batteries that was 9 months old with a
new 21 other batteries that were 1 month old.  The batteries exploded the
minute I press the accelerator.

It is possible to use a wagon as a EV, but I would get that back panel
section from a pickup and install it, so it would separate the driver
section from the battery section.  Use a 1/4 inch lexon glass you can get
from a glass company and seal it in so it overlaps the flange on the battery
side.

The only problem, is if you have a battery explosion, it will shatter all
the side windows and may kill some one if you do not reinforce those too.

If you do not use battery box covers or hinge covers, then I would triple
layer this glass between the the passenger compartment and the batteries.
Also remember to ventilated the battery area.  I first start up the exhaust
fans before I turn on the battery charger and open any covers.  Run the fans
for about 1 minute before you charge the batteries or work on them.

I have install a interlock system, where I must first turn on the fans which
activates a switch which detects the air flow in the fan exhaust hoses.
When the flow is corrected, then it activates DC contactor that is between
the battery charger and batteries.

At any time, this fan fails, it will then shut down the battery charger.

This fan control system is use on building heating systems, where the fans
must come on first and stay for a certain amount of time after the heating
system shuts down.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Heynow" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 8:14 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?

>
> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the
> idea
> of batteries in the passenger compartment.  I want to be able to keep them
> in the trunk and under the hood.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  Do some
> wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Batteries-in-the-passenger-compartment--tp16924189p16924189.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Randy Eckert]

God I am gad some one has the time to tell about how they did it first,
thanks for all the good info.
There is always time for great design!

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is best to have some type of fire wall between the battery box
> container
> and the passenger compartment.  The fire wall between the motor bay and
> passenger may not be completely steel.  There are areas in the firewall
> that
> may be plastic like the heater fan units, the heater core covers, and wire
> and cable entrances points.
>
> Now is you look at some trunks, the fire wall between the trunk area and
> the
> rear seat may be only a plastic or cloth insulator.  If you use the trunk
> method, its is best to install a full piece of metal over this area.
>
> Looking at a pickup with batteries in the box, and if you have a battery
> explosion, the rear glass will break up into small pieces and embed into
> you.
>
> I am using the pick up method, but I replace or overlay that rear glass
> with
> a piece of 1/4 inch very high impact lexon glass you can get at a glass
> shop.
>
> All my batteries are enclose in a two compartments of 1/4 inch fiberglass
> sheeting that is reinforce up to 1/2 inch thick or more.  The battery box
> covers are stainless full length hinge and double seal when the lids are
> close.
>
> A battery box ventilation should be use, where the all plastic totally
> enclose fan exhaust the battery box air out from one corner which brings
> in
> fresh air through a filter at the other corner of the box. The exhaust air
> goes up in a heavy duty 1/4 inch flex hose.  DO NOT USE THOSE THIN VINYL
> HOSES, where the battery fumes will take these out in with a day.
>
> Most important is to have the battery box covers hinge so only the open
> end
> faces away from the passenger compartment.  Plus, do not latch the covers
> down, only hinge them, plus as well any other cover.
>
> Back in 1985 I had one defective battery exploded, which also took out 9
> other batteries.  The battery covers lefted up, plus also left up the
> hatch
> back cover which blew out the lexon glass all in one piece.  The rear
> window
> lexon glass panel held.
>
> A local battery company slip in 10 batteries that was 9 months old with a
> new 21 other batteries that were 1 month old.  The batteries exploded the
> minute I press the accelerator.
>
> It is possible to use a wagon as a EV, but I would get that back panel
> section from a pickup and install it, so it would separate the driver
> section from the battery section.  Use a 1/4 inch lexon glass you can get
> from a glass company and seal it in so it overlaps the flange on the
> battery
> side.
>
> The only problem, is if you have a battery explosion, it will shatter all
> the side windows and may kill some one if you do not reinforce those too.
>
> If you do not use battery box covers or hinge covers, then I would triple
> layer this glass between the the passenger compartment and the batteries.
> Also remember to ventilated the battery area.  I first start up the
> exhaust
> fans before I turn on the battery charger and open any covers.  Run the
> fans
> for about 1 minute before you charge the batteries or work on them.
>
> I have install a interlock system, where I must first turn on the fans
> which
> activates a switch which detects the air flow in the fan exhaust hoses.
> When the flow is corrected, then it activates DC contactor that is between
> the battery charger and batteries.
>
> At any time, this fan fails, it will then shut down the battery charger.
>
> This fan control system is use on building heating systems, where the fans
> must come on first and stay for a certain amount of time after the heating
> system shuts down.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Heynow" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 8:14 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
>
>
> >
> > I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the
> > idea
> > of batteries in the passenger compartment.  I want to be able to keep
> them
> > in the trunk and under the hood.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  Do some
> > wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Peter
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
> http://www.nabble.com/Batteries-in-the-passenger-compartment--tp16924189p16924189.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Eckert" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


> God I am gad some one has the time to tell about how they did it first,
> thanks for all the good info.
> There is always time for great design!

      Hi Randy an" All;

    Have had a Rabbit, where EVERYthing was out in the open. Batteries lived
in the back, open, with the back seat out and 9 of them dropped down in a
well, where the spare tire USED to live.5 where the back seat was. In a
bunny there is JUST enough room between the frame rails to weld in a angle
iron frame to hold them, lowered down to about the rear modesty panel, so
they won't be first to hit something. Low clearence, curb, etc?My Rabbit was
built to handle a 50 mile plus commute, don't try this at home; stuffing 20
batteries in, you will be 3100 lbs curb weight! I DID beef up the springs
and  rear brakes with Jetta drums, though.So all up, with me aboard, toolie
kit, work bag, lunch, etc I was up about 3500 lbs! IF I took a passenger add
up HIS curb weight and there ya go, toward 4k!! Sigh, ONCE in a while I took
3 other victems I mean PASSENGERS. But rarely did I cary more than 2 folks
in Rabbit.

    Now,, Jetta, well, ALL the damn batteries, 20, are in the trunk and up
front, under the hood. I have ALL the passenger seats, as it was born with.
Nice if you take a few folks out for dinner?  I cut out the rather
commodious trunk, at the frame rails, and made a angle iron, well, actually
old bed frame rails. Vast amount of them turn up at your friendly dump!
Free!When I have cut and welded in the frame, I build a wood frame that sits
atop the sheetmetal, bolt it down with latex caulk around, to seal it off
from the cabin. This cuts down on road noise, inside. top it off with a
plywood top, with hinges, and thick rubber weather seal tape to male it
tight. Being it is OPEN to the outside, you get a venting action when you
are driving, and best, you can open and hose everything down, it drains
overboard. Hi tech here<g>!Batteries piss out acid, and NEED to be washed
down with a hose and paintbrush, all the time. Water them, NOT with the
hose, use distilled water! First, then wash it down, leave the lid open on a
sunny day, so everything dries out! Close it up and you can STILL load a few
hundred bux worth of groceries at the Stupermarket. Trunk is STILL useful. A
Wagon, with it's higher load capacity, you SHOULD be able to stuff batteries
in the "Trunk"? Same floor plan.You could "Band" the box with a couple
straps over, bolted through the frame rails to hold thing down when you do a
roll over?This will keep things in place and no shorts against the plywood
cover when it become the BOTTOM! The front? Not too worried as THEY won't
join you in the cabin, I'll pick them up later IF I can?

   I'm betting, with my "Signiture" battery stowing method that there would
be enough ventalation, being as it's open to the air outside, especially
when you are going? I HAVE blown up batteries, before. as it is OPEN you
don't destroy stuff, the blast? it goes overboard! It ISN'T an inclosed
setup, so no damaging, confined explosion. Works fine for me.In normal
service batteries DON'T gas, unless your charger went berserk? My system,
has worked over 100 years on RR passenger cars. Not a sealed box, but
vented, passively, 'cept when the train is going. Lottsa breeze them. The
downside is the batteries are out in the open, NOT so great when its below
zero out. I just live with half my range and think of Battery Beach Burnout
in FLA<G>! 70 degree daze in Jan, only a 26 hour train flight from NYC!
HowEVer it is PERFECT EV weather NOW in the glorious Spring!! Leaves
greening out all over the place!

    YMMV.

     Bob

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[Lee Hart]

Randy Eckert wrote:
> God I am glad some one has the time to tell about how they did it first.
> Thanks for all the good info. There is always time for great design!

Roland is a great source for very thorough robust design ideas. I'm not
quite as conservative as he is, but have built a number of successful
EVs. Here are some guidelines that I follow.

Lead acid batteries won't burn, so a "firewall" isn't exactly needed.
The purpose of a battery box is mainly:

  - To keep them contained in case of a crash. Batteries are heavy,
    and if they get loose and fly around in an accident, they can
    inflict serious injury!

  - To protect against electrical shocks. You don't leave the cover
    off your home's electrical panel; likewise, you need to enclose
    the batteries and their connections well enough so no one can
    accidentally touch them (that includes kids, pets, mice, etc.)

  - To keep them clean. Rain, snow, mud, dust, bugs, and the like
    can create partial short circuits (leakage currents) that can
    run down your batteries, prevent proper charging, or even create
    shock hazards.

  - To prevent accumulation of hydrogen. *All* batteries (flooded or
    sealed) will vent hydrogen if overcharged. Floodeds of course
    vent the most. A battery box needs to be ventilated to route
    hydrogen outside (i.e. *not* let it collect in the interior of
    the car)!

It isn't particularly difficult to meet these requirements. It's a lot
easier than safely containing (say) gasoline. The main things to avoid are:

  - DON'T leave the battery terminals exposed, where anyone can touch
    them.

  - DON'T put them in a sealed space, like the trunk or inside the car
    unless there is a fan or other source of ventilation.

  - DON'T leave them loose to slide around in an accident. Mount them
    well enough so if the car rolled in an accident, they would all
    stay put!

  - DON'T bury them so you can't get at them to test or replace.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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[bbbrt76]

You could always place a sealed shelf from the back seat to the hatch so that your batteries are not in the passenger compartment and you still get the volume and payload capacity of the wagon, plus useable space above the batteries on the shelf
>
> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the idea
> of batteries in the passenger compartment.  I want to be able to keep them
> in the trunk and under the hood.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  Do some
> wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
>
> Thanks
>
> Pe

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[Richard Acuti]

Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us.  :)

I have 6 batteries behind the back seat of my '74 Beetle. The tops are covered with 2 layers of 1/2" thick wood and now, thanks to Roland's story, I'll be putting a bullet-proof layer of something along the back of the seat and a thick lexan sheet that rises from the top of the seat to the ceiling. There is already a small exhaust fan that dumps vapors to the engine compartment which is open to the air.

I haven't had any issues or problems.  I say it's safe to do with proper precautions.
_________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Heynow
Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
To: [hidden email]:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii  

I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the ideaof batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep themin the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do somewagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV? Thanks Peter



________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby–how do you know when you’re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A

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[Randy Eckert]

What about heating the battery pack in the winter,,,say with those wires you
wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least while it is at
home.
I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They have
wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That could
be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater (think
hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also are
very plug and play.
I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
$25.
But given the price of DC to DC inverters I think a stand alone battery and
one of these backup power units are much more useful because you get a built
in charger, clean quality AC power, gauges,and 12volt power,you can have as
much depth to the battery size you may need for lights, stereo, wipers,
windows, and it just plugs in and tops it's self off.
If you have a grid power outage it is there for you also.
It makes your car back up power for your house.

How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat? They have low wattage
stuff for plastic pipes.
I don't think it would  not take much to install one of those small travel
size hair blowers into you duct system for window heating, you could maybe
put a 12 volt fan motor on it so it did not sound like a jet engine. But
they make good fast heat and the wattage is on them and they have more than
one setting on most of them.
If it was hooked to the back up power and it in turn plugged in at night you
could kick it on 10 min before you leave and never need to scrap you windows
and it would be toasty warm in your EV.
What say yeeh engineers?

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Richard Acuti <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us.  :)
>
> I have 6 batteries behind the back seat of my '74 Beetle. The tops are
> covered with 2 layers of 1/2" thick wood and now, thanks to Roland's story,
> I'll be putting a bullet-proof layer of something along the back of the seat
> and a thick lexan sheet that rises from the top of the seat to the ceiling.
> There is already a small exhaust fan that dumps vapors to the engine
> compartment which is open to the air.
>
> I haven't had any issues or problems.  I say it's safe to do with proper
> precautions.
> _________________________________
> Message: 16
> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Heynow
> Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
> To: [hidden email]:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the
> ideaof batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep
> themin the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do
> somewagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV? Thanks
> Peter
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Back to work after baby–how do you know when you're ready?
>
> http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Ben-149]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Randy Eckert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They have
> wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That could
> be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
> it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
> charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater (think
> hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also are
> very plug and play.
> I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
> $25.

I've considered something like this, but you need to consider the duty
cycle - the inverters on those inexpensive UPSes are only designed to
operate for whatever capacity the battery has. You could upgrade the
battery to get a longer runtime, but the inverter may not be able to
handle it. On the other hand, maybe by simply upgrading the cooling it
could run longer .. just a bit of uncertainty there. I have heard from
online accounts of upgrading the UPSes that the charging circuits do
not take kindly to higher capacity batteries - they leave them
undercharged and in some cases the unit simply won't function because
it believes the battery or charger is deffective and shuts down.

Google around some before choosing one - some people have upgraded
them for longer use at home, and you may find a model that is
documented to have better reliability in that usage.

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[Roland Wiench]

In choosing a heat tape to use for batteries, you want one that will at
least keep the battery at about 80 degrees.  There are some water pipe heat
tapes, that have a built in thermostat that only allows these tapes to get
up to 40 degrees, which is just enough to keep water from freezing.

Ok, so I remove that built in thermo from this flat type of heater tape and
install a external line voltage heater thermostat that had a range from 40
degrees to 90 degrees.

I wrap it around my aluminum battery box where the 2 volt cells where potted
into this box.  Tape on a commercial 1 inch thick fiberglass sheet with
aluminum backing over the heat tape.  You do not want any foam or some other
material than can burn.

This work good for awhile, until 20 amp circuit breaker started to trip.  I
found that the tape wrap around the 90 degree corners of the box, cause
black burn spots at every turn, which one corner burnt all the way through.

So I redid it by taping a rubber hose which was cut in half to the corners.
Latter, I look at that round blue heat tape that came out, but this was
internal temperature control to maintain only a 40 degree temperature.  This
temperature control is accomplish by changing the resistance of the heater
elements as the ambient temperature drops.  So adding a external thermostat
to this type of heat tape does not work.

Today, the only battery heater I use is a electric battery blanket made by
KATs which you can get at some auto parts store.  I use it only on my 12
volt accessory battery.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Eckert" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


What about heating the battery pack in the winter,,,say with those wires you
wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least while it is at
home.
I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They have
wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That could
be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater (think
hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also are
very plug and play.
I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
$25.
But given the price of DC to DC inverters I think a stand alone battery and
one of these backup power units are much more useful because you get a built
in charger, clean quality AC power, gauges,and 12volt power,you can have as
much depth to the battery size you may need for lights, stereo, wipers,
windows, and it just plugs in and tops it's self off.
If you have a grid power outage it is there for you also.
It makes your car back up power for your house.

How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat? They have low wattage
stuff for plastic pipes.
I don't think it would  not take much to install one of those small travel
size hair blowers into you duct system for window heating, you could maybe
put a 12 volt fan motor on it so it did not sound like a jet engine. But
they make good fast heat and the wattage is on them and they have more than
one setting on most of them.
If it was hooked to the back up power and it in turn plugged in at night you
could kick it on 10 min before you leave and never need to scrap you windows
and it would be toasty warm in your EV.
What say yeeh engineers?

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Richard Acuti <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us.  :)
>
> I have 6 batteries behind the back seat of my '74 Beetle. The tops are
> covered with 2 layers of 1/2" thick wood and now, thanks to Roland's
> story,
> I'll be putting a bullet-proof layer of something along the back of the
> seat
> and a thick lexan sheet that rises from the top of the seat to the
> ceiling.
> There is already a small exhaust fan that dumps vapors to the engine
> compartment which is open to the air.
>
> I haven't had any issues or problems.  I say it's safe to do with proper
> precautions.
> _________________________________
> Message: 16
> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Heynow
> Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
> To: [hidden email]:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the
> ideaof batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep
> themin the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do
> somewagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
> Thanks
> Peter
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Back to work after baby–how do you know when you're ready?
>
> http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[Randy Eckert]

I was reading a reveiw of a 900watt unit that ran 30min powering a PC now I
bet it has it's own fan ,but even not that is an easy fix,
Given the real run time of most  home built ev's and  what I would be using
it for, small wire heating of batt's, window defrosting, ithats inside its
design use age ,
but a temp gauge is prudent also.
The back up power ability is limited, but it is there.
As for the charger in it I am sure because they use sealed lead batts it is
low watts but having a couple 18amp hr or just 1 car batt should be good. it
will tell you if it thinks something is wrong with the batt.
And at least if it does not work out you can just install it on your home PC
and you are out nothing.

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Ben <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Randy Eckert <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They
> have
> > wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That
> could
> > be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff,
> plus
> > it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
> > charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater
> (think
> > hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also
> are
> > very plug and play.
> > I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
> > $25.
>
> I've considered something like this, but you need to consider the duty
> cycle - the inverters on those inexpensive UPSes are only designed to
> operate for whatever capacity the battery has. You could upgrade the
> battery to get a longer runtime, but the inverter may not be able to
> handle it. On the other hand, maybe by simply upgrading the cooling it
> could run longer .. just a bit of uncertainty there. I have heard from
> online accounts of upgrading the UPSes that the charging circuits do
> not take kindly to higher capacity batteries - they leave them
> undercharged and in some cases the unit simply won't function because
> it believes the battery or charger is deffective and shuts down.
>
> Google around some before choosing one - some people have upgraded
> them for longer use at home, and you may find a model that is
> documented to have better reliability in that usage.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[Randy Eckert]

40 is better than 10 and with its thermal mass would take a good part of the
day to cool off.
I was just thinking cold nights, while charging when you get home will heat
them up the power robbing cold would set in by morning.
We get a lot of cold wind in winter like many .... I have still to work on
tapping that wind for charging and heating power.
I live in a wind hot spot so charging a bank of bats at home while gone then
hooking the car to them  at home they should equelise, YES?
Then charge the car bank from grid power to top it off, yes or no?

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In choosing a heat tape to use for batteries, you want one that will at
> least keep the battery at about 80 degrees.  There are some water pipe heat
> tapes, that have a built in thermostat that only allows these tapes to get
> up to 40 degrees, which is just enough to keep water from freezing.
>
> Ok, so I remove that built in thermo from this flat type of heater tape and
> install a external line voltage heater thermostat that had a range from 40
> degrees to 90 degrees.
>
> I wrap it around my aluminum battery box where the 2 volt cells where
> potted
> into this box.  Tape on a commercial 1 inch thick fiberglass sheet with
> aluminum backing over the heat tape.  You do not want any foam or some
> other
> material than can burn.
>
> This work good for awhile, until 20 amp circuit breaker started to trip.  I
> found that the tape wrap around the 90 degree corners of the box, cause
> black burn spots at every turn, which one corner burnt all the way through.
>
> So I redid it by taping a rubber hose which was cut in half to the corners.
> Latter, I look at that round blue heat tape that came out, but this was
> internal temperature control to maintain only a 40 degree temperature.
>  This
> temperature control is accomplish by changing the resistance of the heater
> elements as the ambient temperature drops.  So adding a external thermostat
> to this type of heat tape does not work.
>
> Today, the only battery heater I use is a electric battery blanket made by
> KATs which you can get at some auto parts store.  I use it only on my 12
> volt accessory battery.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Eckert" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
>
>
> What about heating the battery pack in the winter,,,say with those wires
> you
> wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least while it is at
> home.
> I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They have
> wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That could
> be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
> it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
> charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater (think
> hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also are
> very plug and play.
> I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
> $25.
> But given the price of DC to DC inverters I think a stand alone battery and
> one of these backup power units are much more useful because you get a
> built
> in charger, clean quality AC power, gauges,and 12volt power,you can have as
> much depth to the battery size you may need for lights, stereo, wipers,
> windows, and it just plugs in and tops it's self off.
> If you have a grid power outage it is there for you also.
> It makes your car back up power for your house.
>
> How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat? They have low
> wattage
> stuff for plastic pipes.
> I don't think it would  not take much to install one of those small travel
> size hair blowers into you duct system for window heating, you could maybe
> put a 12 volt fan motor on it so it did not sound like a jet engine. But
> they make good fast heat and the wattage is on them and they have more than
> one setting on most of them.
> If it was hooked to the back up power and it in turn plugged in at night
> you
> could kick it on 10 min before you leave and never need to scrap you
> windows
> and it would be toasty warm in your EV.
> What say yeeh engineers?
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Richard Acuti <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us.  :)
> >
> > I have 6 batteries behind the back seat of my '74 Beetle. The tops are
> > covered with 2 layers of 1/2" thick wood and now, thanks to Roland's
> > story,
> > I'll be putting a bullet-proof layer of something along the back of the
> > seat
> > and a thick lexan sheet that rises from the top of the seat to the
> > ceiling.
> > There is already a small exhaust fan that dumps vapors to the engine
> > compartment which is open to the air.
> >
> > I haven't had any issues or problems.  I say it's safe to do with proper
> > precautions.
> > _________________________________
> > Message: 16
> > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Heynow
> > Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
> > To: [hidden email]:
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the
> > ideaof batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep
> > themin the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do
> > somewagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
> > Thanks
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > Rich A.
> > Maryland
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> > http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Back to work after baby–how do you know when you're ready?
> >
> >
> http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[Zeke Yewdall]

On cheap inverters... UPS units are one source.  If you are buying the
really cheap modified sinewave ones from Harbor freight or such... be
warned.  The Harbor freight ones can't handle surges very well, and
the cooling fans don't tend to last very long (in outdoor conditions)
compare to a slighly more expensive one like a Xantrex Xpower.  It's
about $80 for the harbor freight 1200 watt one... vs $200 for an
Xpower 1000 watt one...   and from what I've seen, it's probably worth
it...

Z

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Randy Eckert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was reading a reveiw of a 900watt unit that ran 30min powering a PC now I
>  bet it has it's own fan ,but even not that is an easy fix,
>  Given the real run time of most  home built ev's and  what I would be using
>  it for, small wire heating of batt's, window defrosting, ithats inside its
>  design use age ,
>  but a temp gauge is prudent also.
>  The back up power ability is limited, but it is there.
>  As for the charger in it I am sure because they use sealed lead batts it is
>  low watts but having a couple 18amp hr or just 1 car batt should be good. it
>  will tell you if it thinks something is wrong with the batt.
>  And at least if it does not work out you can just install it on your home PC
>  and you are out nothing.
>
>
>
>  On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Ben <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Randy Eckert <[hidden email]>
>  > wrote:
>  > > I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They
>  > have
>  > > wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That
>  > could
>  > > be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff,
>  > plus
>  > > it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
>  > > charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater
>  > (think
>  > > hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also
>  > are
>  > > very plug and play.
>  > > I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
>  > > $25.
>  >
>  > I've considered something like this, but you need to consider the duty
>  > cycle - the inverters on those inexpensive UPSes are only designed to
>  > operate for whatever capacity the battery has. You could upgrade the
>  > battery to get a longer runtime, but the inverter may not be able to
>  > handle it. On the other hand, maybe by simply upgrading the cooling it
>  > could run longer .. just a bit of uncertainty there. I have heard from
>  > online accounts of upgrading the UPSes that the charging circuits do
>  > not take kindly to higher capacity batteries - they leave them
>  > undercharged and in some cases the unit simply won't function because
>  > it believes the battery or charger is deffective and shuts down.
>  >
>  > Google around some before choosing one - some people have upgraded
>  > them for longer use at home, and you may find a model that is
>  > documented to have better reliability in that usage.
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > For subscription options, see
>  > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  For subscription options, see
>  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[Randy Eckert]

here is the review
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=47
and the company site
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/browse-by-category/intelligent-lcd-ups/CP1500AVRLCD.html
I like the pretty blue read out screen,:) plus with a long enough cable you
can monitor it on your PC using the soft ware that lets you set  things up
the way you like.
It can be a PC backup any time the car is home.
As you see on the review site it is only $165 at newegg
sounds like a deal to me
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Ben <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Randy Eckert <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They
> have
> > wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That
> could
> > be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff,
> plus
> > it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
> > charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater
> (think
> > hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also
> are
> > very plug and play.
> > I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
> > $25.
>
> I've considered something like this, but you need to consider the duty
> cycle - the inverters on those inexpensive UPSes are only designed to
> operate for whatever capacity the battery has. You could upgrade the
> battery to get a longer runtime, but the inverter may not be able to
> handle it. On the other hand, maybe by simply upgrading the cooling it
> could run longer .. just a bit of uncertainty there. I have heard from
> online accounts of upgrading the UPSes that the charging circuits do
> not take kindly to higher capacity batteries - they leave them
> undercharged and in some cases the unit simply won't function because
> it believes the battery or charger is deffective and shuts down.
>
> Google around some before choosing one - some people have upgraded
> them for longer use at home, and you may find a model that is
> documented to have better reliability in that usage.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[Roland Wiench]

It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the batteries
at or above 50% DOD.

I do not have the chart in front of me, but you could find it on the web
somewhere.  I think 100% charge battery temperature at 30 degrees F. causes
the electrolyte to act like 50% DOD.  So if you normally discharge to 50%
DOD during your drive at 80 degrees F, at 30 degrees F this would be like
75% DOD at 30 degrees.

The battery itself is not actually discharge to this level, but the current
flow is reduce somewhat.

If you do not travel that far at speed, then the 40 degrees F tape will keep
you battery from freezing.

As I remember, if a battery is at 50% DOD at 80 F. and you let it expose to
a temperature of 30 degrees, it will freeze.  A battery at 100% State of
Charge, the electrolyte will freeze at somewhere around 20 degrees.

Now if you remove all the water out of the electrolyte which is 5 parts of
water (H2O) which is 1.0 specific gravity to 3 parts of sulfuric acid
(H2SO4) which is 1.8 specific gravity, the battery being only sulfuric acid
at 1.8 sg will freeze at 115 below zero.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Eckert" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


40 is better than 10 and with its thermal mass would take a good part of the
day to cool off.
I was just thinking cold nights, while charging when you get home will heat
them up the power robbing cold would set in by morning.
We get a lot of cold wind in winter like many .... I have still to work on
tapping that wind for charging and heating power.
I live in a wind hot spot so charging a bank of bats at home while gone then
hooking the car to them  at home they should equelise, YES?
Then charge the car bank from grid power to top it off, yes or no?

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In choosing a heat tape to use for batteries, you want one that will at
> least keep the battery at about 80 degrees.  There are some water pipe
> heat
> tapes, that have a built in thermostat that only allows these tapes to get
> up to 40 degrees, which is just enough to keep water from freezing.
>
> Ok, so I remove that built in thermo from this flat type of heater tape
> and
> install a external line voltage heater thermostat that had a range from 40
> degrees to 90 degrees.
>
> I wrap it around my aluminum battery box where the 2 volt cells where
> potted
> into this box.  Tape on a commercial 1 inch thick fiberglass sheet with
> aluminum backing over the heat tape.  You do not want any foam or some
> other
> material than can burn.
>
> This work good for awhile, until 20 amp circuit breaker started to trip.
> I
> found that the tape wrap around the 90 degree corners of the box, cause
> black burn spots at every turn, which one corner burnt all the way
> through.
>
> So I redid it by taping a rubber hose which was cut in half to the
> corners.
> Latter, I look at that round blue heat tape that came out, but this was
> internal temperature control to maintain only a 40 degree temperature.
>  This
> temperature control is accomplish by changing the resistance of the heater
> elements as the ambient temperature drops.  So adding a external
> thermostat
> to this type of heat tape does not work.
>
> Today, the only battery heater I use is a electric battery blanket made by
> KATs which you can get at some auto parts store.  I use it only on my 12
> volt accessory battery.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Eckert" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
>
>
> What about heating the battery pack in the winter,,,say with those wires
> you
> wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least while it is at
> home.
> I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They
> have
> wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That
> could
> be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
> it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
> charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater (think
> hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also are
> very plug and play.
> I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
> $25.
> But given the price of DC to DC inverters I think a stand alone battery
> and
> one of these backup power units are much more useful because you get a
> built
> in charger, clean quality AC power, gauges,and 12volt power,you can have
> as
> much depth to the battery size you may need for lights, stereo, wipers,
> windows, and it just plugs in and tops it's self off.
> If you have a grid power outage it is there for you also.
> It makes your car back up power for your house.
>
> How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat? They have low
> wattage
> stuff for plastic pipes.
> I don't think it would  not take much to install one of those small travel
> size hair blowers into you duct system for window heating, you could maybe
> put a 12 volt fan motor on it so it did not sound like a jet engine. But
> they make good fast heat and the wattage is on them and they have more
> than
> one setting on most of them.
> If it was hooked to the back up power and it in turn plugged in at night
> you
> could kick it on 10 min before you leave and never need to scrap you
> windows
> and it would be toasty warm in your EV.
> What say yeeh engineers?
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Richard Acuti <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us.  :)
> >
> > I have 6 batteries behind the back seat of my '74 Beetle. The tops are
> > covered with 2 layers of 1/2" thick wood and now, thanks to Roland's
> > story,
> > I'll be putting a bullet-proof layer of something along the back of the
> > seat
> > and a thick lexan sheet that rises from the top of the seat to the
> > ceiling.
> > There is already a small exhaust fan that dumps vapors to the engine
> > compartment which is open to the air.
> >
> > I haven't had any issues or problems.  I say it's safe to do with proper
> > precautions.
> > _________________________________
> > Message: 16
> > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Heynow
> > Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
> > To: [hidden email]:
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the
> > ideaof batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep
> > themin the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do
> > somewagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
> > Thanks
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > Rich A.
> > Maryland
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> > http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Back to work after baby–how do you know when you're ready?
> >
> >
> http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[Doug Weathers]

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> On cheap inverters... UPS units are one source.  If you are buying the
> really cheap modified sinewave ones from Harbor freight or such... be
> warned.  The Harbor freight ones can't handle surges very well, and
> the cooling fans don't tend to last very long (in outdoor conditions)
> compare to a slighly more expensive one like a Xantrex Xpower.  It's
> about $80 for the harbor freight 1200 watt one... vs $200 for an
> Xpower 1000 watt one...   and from what I've seen, it's probably worth
> it...

I wanted to test my batteries at a constant power, so I bought a Harbor
Freight 1000 watt inverter and two 500 watt work lights.  The
documentation said 1000 watts continuous, but it would shut down almost
immediately at that load.  (I checked the load with a WattsUp - exactly
1000 watts on wall power.)

Fooling around one trouble light plus an old torchiere with a dimmer
switch, I figured out that it would work for a time at 750 watts.  Their
tech support shrugged and told me to bring it back.  I swapped it for a
duplicate unit, which behaved in exactly the same way.

I had to upgrade to the 2000 watt inverterbefore it would actually run
my battery down at 1000 watts.

In other words, their published specs are a fantasy.  If my experience
is any guide, the actual watt rating is between two-thirds to one-half
of the published number.

Nonetheless, the 2000 watt unit is working fine for testing my
batteries, and I got it during one of their periodic sales.  We'll see
how long it lasts.


--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com

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[markgrasser]

In my past job I spent a whole lot of time testing inverters, ours and the
competition. Your results are common. The inverter specs were always
fantasy. Typically you could get the rated constant wattage for a second or
two and were lucky to get more than 75% continuous. There is supposed to be
a few seconds of startup boost but it is nonexistent.

Where did inverters come from, this is almost funny but it's not. The Asian
inverter business is 90% from the city of Tainan, Taiwan. Once upon a time
some guy decided to build inverters in Tainan, since then employees have
continuously spun off to start their own inverter companies. They are all in
Tainan. They all work very close to the same. I have probably visited about
50% of them. They all show you the same box with almost the same guts. We
tried to get our manufacturer to change his ways and give us what the box
said it delivered. Never happened.

On the bright side if you can run it at 60 to 70% and it lasts more than a
week you are doing VERY well indeed. Again, more evidence to me on not
liking the T and C place of manufacturing.

Mark Grasser
 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:15 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Cheap inverters (was: Re: Batteries in the passenger
compartment?)



Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> On cheap inverters... UPS units are one source.  If you are buying the
> really cheap modified sinewave ones from Harbor freight or such... be
> warned.  The Harbor freight ones can't handle surges very well, and
> the cooling fans don't tend to last very long (in outdoor conditions)
> compare to a slighly more expensive one like a Xantrex Xpower.  It's
> about $80 for the harbor freight 1200 watt one... vs $200 for an
> Xpower 1000 watt one...   and from what I've seen, it's probably worth
> it...

I wanted to test my batteries at a constant power, so I bought a Harbor
Freight 1000 watt inverter and two 500 watt work lights.  The
documentation said 1000 watts continuous, but it would shut down almost
immediately at that load.  (I checked the load with a WattsUp - exactly
1000 watts on wall power.)

Fooling around one trouble light plus an old torchiere with a dimmer
switch, I figured out that it would work for a time at 750 watts.  Their
tech support shrugged and told me to bring it back.  I swapped it for a
duplicate unit, which behaved in exactly the same way.

I had to upgrade to the 2000 watt inverterbefore it would actually run
my battery down at 1000 watts.

In other words, their published specs are a fantasy.  If my experience
is any guide, the actual watt rating is between two-thirds to one-half
of the published number.

Nonetheless, the 2000 watt unit is working fine for testing my
batteries, and I got it during one of their periodic sales.  We'll see
how long it lasts.


--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com

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[Zeke Yewdall]

Wow, interesting.... I'm used inverters that you can run at 120% of
their rated power for half an hour or more before they start having
any problems.   NOT cheap though......  :)  Sometimes over $1/watt
retail for the more expensive ones.

Interestingly... almost all of these are from the same group of
engineers in Arlington, WA -- employee's keep spinning off new
companies there too  :)  Except for some German ones.

Z

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Mark Grasser <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In my past job I spent a whole lot of time testing inverters, ours and the
>  competition. Your results are common. The inverter specs were always
>  fantasy. Typically you could get the rated constant wattage for a second or
>  two and were lucky to get more than 75% continuous. There is supposed to be
>  a few seconds of startup boost but it is nonexistent.
>
>  Where did inverters come from, this is almost funny but it's not. The Asian
>  inverter business is 90% from the city of Tainan, Taiwan. Once upon a time
>  some guy decided to build inverters in Tainan, since then employees have
>  continuously spun off to start their own inverter companies. They are all in
>  Tainan. They all work very close to the same. I have probably visited about
>  50% of them. They all show you the same box with almost the same guts. We
>  tried to get our manufacturer to change his ways and give us what the box
>  said it delivered. Never happened.
>
>  On the bright side if you can run it at 60 to 70% and it lasts more than a
>  week you are doing VERY well indeed. Again, more evidence to me on not
>  liking the T and C place of manufacturing.
>
>  Mark Grasser
>
>
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
>  Of Doug Weathers
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:15 PM
>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>  Subject: [EVDL] Cheap inverters (was: Re: Batteries in the passenger
>  compartment?)
>
>
>
>  Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>  > On cheap inverters... UPS units are one source.  If you are buying the
>  > really cheap modified sinewave ones from Harbor freight or such... be
>  > warned.  The Harbor freight ones can't handle surges very well, and
>  > the cooling fans don't tend to last very long (in outdoor conditions)
>  > compare to a slighly more expensive one like a Xantrex Xpower.  It's
>  > about $80 for the harbor freight 1200 watt one... vs $200 for an
>  > Xpower 1000 watt one...   and from what I've seen, it's probably worth
>  > it...
>
>  I wanted to test my batteries at a constant power, so I bought a Harbor
>  Freight 1000 watt inverter and two 500 watt work lights.  The
>  documentation said 1000 watts continuous, but it would shut down almost
>  immediately at that load.  (I checked the load with a WattsUp - exactly
>  1000 watts on wall power.)
>
>  Fooling around one trouble light plus an old torchiere with a dimmer
>  switch, I figured out that it would work for a time at 750 watts.  Their
>  tech support shrugged and told me to bring it back.  I swapped it for a
>  duplicate unit, which behaved in exactly the same way.
>
>  I had to upgrade to the 2000 watt inverterbefore it would actually run
>  my battery down at 1000 watts.
>
>  In other words, their published specs are a fantasy.  If my experience
>  is any guide, the actual watt rating is between two-thirds to one-half
>  of the published number.
>
>  Nonetheless, the 2000 watt unit is working fine for testing my
>  batteries, and I got it during one of their periodic sales.  We'll see
>  how long it lasts.
>
>
>  --
>  Doug Weathers
>  Las Cruces, NM, USA
>  http://www.gdunge.com
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  For subscription options, see
>  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  For subscription options, see
>  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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