Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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Peter_VanDerWal

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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I don't think it applies directly to all batteries, it's sort of a rule of
thumb.
At colder temperatures AGMs tend to lose less (available) capacity than
floodeds, but they still lose.

> Does this apply to AGM batteries, or only flooded lead acid?
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>> It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the
>> batteries
>> at or above 50% DOD.
>>
>> I do not have the chart in front of me, but you could find it on the web
>> somewhere.  I think 100% charge battery temperature at 30 degrees F.
>> causes
>> the electrolyte to act like 50% DOD.  So if you normally discharge to
>> 50%
>> DOD during your drive at 80 degrees F, at 30 degrees F this would be
>> like
>> 75% DOD at 30 degrees.
>>
>> The battery itself is not actually discharge to this level, but the
>> current
>> flow is reduce somewhat.
>>
>> If you do not travel that far at speed, then the 40 degrees F tape will
>> keep
>> you battery from freezing.
>>
>> As I remember, if a battery is at 50% DOD at 80 F. and you let it expose
>> to
>> a temperature of 30 degrees, it will freeze.  A battery at 100% State of
>> Charge, the electrolyte will freeze at somewhere around 20 degrees.
>>
>> Now if you remove all the water out of the electrolyte which is 5 parts
>> of
>> water (H2O) which is 1.0 specific gravity to 3 parts of sulfuric acid
>> (H2SO4) which is 1.8 specific gravity, the battery being only sulfuric
>> acid
>> at 1.8 sg will freeze at 115 below zero.
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
>
>
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Karl Bellve

Re: Cheap inverters

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I use a 2000 watt tripplite Invertor in my camper.  Inexpensive and
reliable.

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=178

It has even run my camper's A/C system for a short time.
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Matt C-2

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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Does this apply to AGM batteries, or only flooded lead acid?

Roland Wiench wrote:

> It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the batteries
> at or above 50% DOD.
>
> I do not have the chart in front of me, but you could find it on the web
> somewhere.  I think 100% charge battery temperature at 30 degrees F. causes
> the electrolyte to act like 50% DOD.  So if you normally discharge to 50%
> DOD during your drive at 80 degrees F, at 30 degrees F this would be like
> 75% DOD at 30 degrees.
>
> The battery itself is not actually discharge to this level, but the current
> flow is reduce somewhat.
>
> If you do not travel that far at speed, then the 40 degrees F tape will keep
> you battery from freezing.
>
> As I remember, if a battery is at 50% DOD at 80 F. and you let it expose to
> a temperature of 30 degrees, it will freeze.  A battery at 100% State of
> Charge, the electrolyte will freeze at somewhere around 20 degrees.
>
> Now if you remove all the water out of the electrolyte which is 5 parts of
> water (H2O) which is 1.0 specific gravity to 3 parts of sulfuric acid
> (H2SO4) which is 1.8 specific gravity, the battery being only sulfuric acid
> at 1.8 sg will freeze at 115 below zero.
>
> Roland
>
>


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Roland Wiench

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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Hello Matt,

The temperature statement I listed below which said, freeze at 20 degrees if
battery is fully charge, should read -20 F degrees.

I found my data for AGM batteries, it is recommended not to store batteries
below -25 to -35 F degrees as long they are fully charge.

Actually the fully charge electrolyte has a lower freezing point then this,
but its best not to go below -25 to -35 F degrees which will still keep the
electrolyte somewhat liquid.

Here is a chart on the freezing points for AGM batteries.

Voltage    State of Charge    Specific Gravity    Frozen Solid

  12.65         100%              1.265              -75 F.
  12.45          75%              1.225              -55 F.
  12.24          50%              1.190              -34 F.
  12.06          25%              1.155              -16 F.
  11.89          Discharge        1.120              -10 F.


Note that the 100 percent discharge value of AGM's at 11.89 volts is 1.120
specific gravity while a flood battery is at 11.50 volts at 1.073 volts.

Actually the AGM batteries in the northern cooler states cycle life will
have the twice the cycle life in then the southern states.  We have one guy
here that's going on 112 years.

Roland



----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt C" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


> Does this apply to AGM batteries, or only flooded lead acid?
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the
> > batteries
> > at or above 50% DOD.
> >
> > I do not have the chart in front of me, but you could find it on the web
> > somewhere.  I think 100% charge battery temperature at 30 degrees F.
> > causes
> > the electrolyte to act like 50% DOD.  So if you normally discharge to
> > 50%
> > DOD during your drive at 80 degrees F, at 30 degrees F this would be
> > like
> > 75% DOD at 30 degrees.
> >
> > The battery itself is not actually discharge to this level, but the
> > current
> > flow is reduce somewhat.
> >
> > If you do not travel that far at speed, then the 40 degrees F tape will
> > keep
> > you battery from freezing.
> >
> > As I remember, if a battery is at 50% DOD at 80 F. and you let it expose
> > to
> > a temperature of 30 degrees, it will freeze.  A battery at 100% State of
> > Charge, the electrolyte will freeze at somewhere around 20 degrees.
> >
> > Now if you remove all the water out of the electrolyte which is 5 parts
> > of
> > water (H2O) which is 1.0 specific gravity to 3 parts of sulfuric acid
> > (H2SO4) which is 1.8 specific gravity, the battery being only sulfuric
> > acid
> > at 1.8 sg will freeze at 115 below zero.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Matt C-2

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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Thanks for the info, you scared me with that typo. In winter here the
temp is almost always above 0 F, and the average is around 30 F

I am planning on using an insulated and heated battery box. I would run
the heaters while plugged into ac power, and use some kind of
temperature control to keep the batteries at a happy temperature.
Hopefully the insulation will keep the batteries warm while I'm at work.


How did he get his batteries to last 112 years!? ;)

Roland Wiench wrote:

>
> Actually the AGM batteries in the northern cooler states cycle life will
> have the twice the cycle life in then the southern states.  We have one guy
> here that's going on 112 years.
>
> Roland
>
>
>

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Ralph-54

Re: Range of the Ranger

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Conventional wisdom says that it takes about 15KW to make my Ranger go down the road at 50-55 mph. I'm figuring on 17KW.

I'm looking at two batteries, the US Battery EV-145 vs the Deka AGM. I need 12V because is need a string of 26 batteries to get 312V for my AC system. Looking at the specs on the US Battery site, they claim that the EV-145 will make 50 amps for 117 minutes. Given a little fudge factor, and that I will need 54 Amps for my cruise at 55 mph, it appears that I will have a good 90 minutes of range, giving me about 80 miles on flat ground, assuming some slop that if it were not there would put me closer to 90 miles.

Am I doing this right? Will I really see a range that high?

-Ralph

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Roland Wiench

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt C" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


> Thanks for the info, you scared me with that typo. In winter here the
> temp is almost always above 0 F, and the average is around 30 F
>
> I am planning on using an insulated and heated battery box. I would run
> the heaters while plugged into ac power, and use some kind of
> temperature control to keep the batteries at a happy temperature.
> Hopefully the insulation will keep the batteries warm while I'm at work.
>
>
> How did he get his batteries to last 112 years!? ;)

He charges him self every day with all fruit breakfast, does his walk every
morning, does not smoke, drink, dresses smartly and is happy all the time.

>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually the AGM batteries in the northern cooler states cycle life will
> > have the twice the cycle life in then the southern states.  We have one
> > guy
> > here that's going on 112 years.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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gary k

Re: Range of the Ranger

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Here is a chart from Deka.  The discharge current that you are looking
at is probably to 100% DOD.  You will have very few cycles if you do get
that range.  There is a big difference in max range and daily range when
you consider replacement cost of the batteries!  Also, do they show a
voltage curve for those discharge rates?  You may still get 54A but the
voltage will be dropping.  Deka shows 12.5 down to 10.5 volts by the end
of a high constant current discharge.  You'll need a lot more current to
maintain the same power over that time.

typical VLRA life cycles

capacity withdrawn (%)                        gel                    agm

100                                                      
450                  150

80                                                        
600                  200

50                                                        
1000                370

25                                                        
2100                925

10                                                        
5700                3100


--
Gary Krysztopik
www.ZWheelz.com
San Antonio, TX


Ralph wrote:
> Conventional wisdom says that it takes about 15KW to make my Ranger go down the road at 50-55 mph. I'm figuring on 17KW.
>
> I'm looking at two batteries, the US Battery EV-145 vs the Deka AGM. I need 12V because is need a string of 26 batteries to get 312V for my AC system. Looking at the specs on the US Battery site, they claim that the EV-145 will make 50 amps for 117 minutes. Given a little fudge factor, and that I will need 54 Amps for my cruise at 55 mph, it appears that I will have a good 90 minutes of range, giving me about 80 miles on flat ground, assuming some slop that if it were not there would put me closer to 90 miles.
>
> Am I doing this right? Will I really see a range that high?
>
> -Ralph
>  

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Lee Hart

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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Randy Eckert wrote:
> What about heating the battery pack in the winter... say with those
> wires you wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least
> while it is at home.

This is a good idea in any climate where you get cool or cold
temperatures. The colder the battery, the lower its capacity. But if you
keep them warm, range in winter can be as good as in summer.

First, insulate the batteries. They generate heat during charging and
use. The insulation traps the heat to keep them warm. In my last EV with
flooded golf cart batteries, 1" of styrafoam insulation was enough to
keep them warm just with the waste heat from daily driving and charging.

If you drive less, have more efficient batteries, or face very cold
temperatures, then heaters will be needed as well. Obviously, the better
your insulation, the less heat you need. There are commercial heating
blankets for batteries. My present EV has a 75 watt battery blanket
heater in each of the two battery boxes.

Plus, people have used all sorts of things for heaters. Electric
blankets from their beds, heating pads, heat tape for pipes, soil
heating wire, etc. Just be careful to protect it from accidental spills
of battery acid and other environmental damage (a car is a rough
environment)!

> I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC.
> They have wonderful clean sine wave outputs and built-in battery
> backup...

You must be looking at different ones that I've seen. Most of them have
very low quality output waveforms, because computer power supplies don't
care if it's a sinewave or not. When AC power is available, it just goes
straight to the output; it's a sinewave because the AC input is a
sinewave. But when AC is lost, the output is a "modified sinewave" which
is marketing doubletalk for a square wave with an off-period (zero,
positive, zero, negative).

Many of these inexpensive inverters are also very badly built, and their
specifications are wildly exaggerated. They know full well that the
average customer won't test it, and won't use it more than a few hours
until *after* the warranty has expired.

> That could be upgraded to a 12volt accessory battery to run all your
> 12 volt stuff, plus it would keep those batts charged...

Many of these UPS supplies do not isolate the battery from the AC power
line! If you ground the negative of its 12v battery to you car body,
you'd have a deadly shock hazard when it's plugged into AC!

A second problem is that the UPS battery charger is terrible. It's
usually a low-current float voltage charger that destroys the battery
from chronic overcharging in 2-3 years.

There *are* reliable, high quality inverter/chargers that deliver real
sinewave outputs, have decent chargers. But they cost significantly more.

> How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat?

That could work, too. I think I would look for commercial heated seat
covers, or heated seats that are installed as a factory option in some
cars. This way, all the details have been worked out for you.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Ralph-54

Re: Range of the Ranger

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I guess what I was getting at was that the US Battery looks like a higher capacity batter than the Deka. The Deka numbers indicated my range would be a lot lower. There could be a difference in weight and size too- I didn't check that.

-Ralph

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:12:07 -0500
gary <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is a chart from Deka.  The discharge current that you are looking
> at is probably to 100% DOD.  You will have very few cycles if you do get
> that range.  There is a big difference in max range and daily range when
> you consider replacement cost of the batteries!  Also, do they show a
> voltage curve for those discharge rates?  You may still get 54A but the
> voltage will be dropping.  Deka shows 12.5 down to 10.5 volts by the end
> of a high constant current discharge.  You'll need a lot more current to
> maintain the same power over that time.
>
> typical VLRA life cycles
>
> capacity withdrawn (%)                        gel                    agm
>
> 100                                                      
> 450                  150
>
> 80                                                        
> 600                  200
>
> 50                                                        
> 1000                370
>
> 25                                                        
> 2100                925
>
> 10                                                        
> 5700                3100
>
>
> --
> Gary Krysztopik
> www.ZWheelz.com
> San Antonio, TX
>
>
> Ralph wrote:
> > Conventional wisdom says that it takes about 15KW to make my Ranger go down the road at 50-55 mph. I'm figuring on 17KW.
> >
> > I'm looking at two batteries, the US Battery EV-145 vs the Deka AGM. I need 12V because is need a string of 26 batteries to get 312V for my AC system. Looking at the specs on the US Battery site, they claim that the EV-145 will make 50 amps for 117 minutes. Given a little fudge factor, and that I will need 54 Amps for my cruise at 55 mph, it appears that I will have a good 90 minutes of range, giving me about 80 miles on flat ground, assuming some slop that if it were not there would put me closer to 90 miles.
> >
> > Am I doing this right? Will I really see a range that high?
> >
> > -Ralph
> >  
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Randy Eckert

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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have look at this one and tell me what you think, thanks
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=47


On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Randy Eckert wrote:
> > What about heating the battery pack in the winter... say with those
> > wires you wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least
> > while it is at home.
>
> This is a good idea in any climate where you get cool or cold
> temperatures. The colder the battery, the lower its capacity. But if you
> keep them warm, range in winter can be as good as in summer.
>
> First, insulate the batteries. They generate heat during charging and
> use. The insulation traps the heat to keep them warm. In my last EV with
> flooded golf cart batteries, 1" of styrafoam insulation was enough to
> keep them warm just with the waste heat from daily driving and charging.
>
> If you drive less, have more efficient batteries, or face very cold
> temperatures, then heaters will be needed as well. Obviously, the better
> your insulation, the less heat you need. There are commercial heating
> blankets for batteries. My present EV has a 75 watt battery blanket
> heater in each of the two battery boxes.
>
> Plus, people have used all sorts of things for heaters. Electric
> blankets from their beds, heating pads, heat tape for pipes, soil
> heating wire, etc. Just be careful to protect it from accidental spills
> of battery acid and other environmental damage (a car is a rough
> environment)!
>
> > I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC.
> > They have wonderful clean sine wave outputs and built-in battery
> > backup...
>
> You must be looking at different ones that I've seen. Most of them have
> very low quality output waveforms, because computer power supplies don't
> care if it's a sinewave or not. When AC power is available, it just goes
> straight to the output; it's a sinewave because the AC input is a
> sinewave. But when AC is lost, the output is a "modified sinewave" which
> is marketing doubletalk for a square wave with an off-period (zero,
> positive, zero, negative).
>
> Many of these inexpensive inverters are also very badly built, and their
> specifications are wildly exaggerated. They know full well that the
> average customer won't test it, and won't use it more than a few hours
> until *after* the warranty has expired.
>
> > That could be upgraded to a 12volt accessory battery to run all your
> > 12 volt stuff, plus it would keep those batts charged...
>
> Many of these UPS supplies do not isolate the battery from the AC power
> line! If you ground the negative of its 12v battery to you car body,
> you'd have a deadly shock hazard when it's plugged into AC!
>
> A second problem is that the UPS battery charger is terrible. It's
> usually a low-current float voltage charger that destroys the battery
> from chronic overcharging in 2-3 years.
>
> There *are* reliable, high quality inverter/chargers that deliver real
> sinewave outputs, have decent chargers. But they cost significantly more.
>
> > How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat?
>
> That could work, too. I think I would look for commercial heated seat
> covers, or heated seats that are installed as a factory option in some
> cars. This way, all the details have been worked out for you.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Lee Hart

Re: Batteries in the passenger compartment?

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Randy Eckert wrote:
> have look at this one and tell me what you think, thanks
> http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=47

It sounds like pure marketing eyewash for a cheap Chinese UPS. There are
no real specifications; only advertising claims.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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