Best insulation for battery box and heater?

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bennelson

Best insulation for battery box and heater?

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I am working on insulating my battery box and would like to install  
battery heat-tape under the batteries.

I did an experiment last night. I cut a piece of standard, 1" thick  
pick foam insulation to the size of my battery box, and routed a  
serpertine pattern into it 1/2" thick, and put some "don't let your  
pipes freeze" heat tape in the track.

I set 4 spare batteries of the same size and type (group 31 lead-acid,  
gels) on top of the foam, and put a packing blanket lightly over the  
top of them, to simulate battery box insulation.

I let the heat-tape run over night.
This morning, the batteries were a nice temperature, about 20 degrees  
F above ambient. However, the heat tape itself MELTED further down  
into the foam.

Can anyone recommend a different insulating material that is still  
water-resistant and non-conductive for use in an EV?
Otherwise, how about some sort of "heat spreader design?

Thanks,

-Ben Nelson
Geo Metro EV home-conversion
"Electro-Metro"

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Zeke Yewdall

Re: Best insulation for battery box and heater?

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There are various types of pipe insulation - -you want the black, more
flexible, more expensive stuff -- armaflex is one brand name.  It is
designed for very hot piping (solar thermal pipe runs that may be up to 300F
or more), as opposed to the cheap grey stiff stuff that will melt around
250F or less.

For rigid foam insulation, the polyisocyanurate (yellow foil covered stuff)
is alot more heat resistant than the white or pink of blue stuff.  But...
the foil is not exactly nonconductive...

Z

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Benjamin Nelson <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I am working on insulating my battery box and would like to install
> battery heat-tape under the batteries.
>
> I did an experiment last night. I cut a piece of standard, 1" thick
> pick foam insulation to the size of my battery box, and routed a
> serpertine pattern into it 1/2" thick, and put some "don't let your
> pipes freeze" heat tape in the track.
>
> I set 4 spare batteries of the same size and type (group 31 lead-acid,
> gels) on top of the foam, and put a packing blanket lightly over the
> top of them, to simulate battery box insulation.
>
> I let the heat-tape run over night.
> This morning, the batteries were a nice temperature, about 20 degrees
> F above ambient. However, the heat tape itself MELTED further down
> into the foam.
>
> Can anyone recommend a different insulating material that is still
> water-resistant and non-conductive for use in an EV?
> Otherwise, how about some sort of "heat spreader design?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Ben Nelson
> Geo Metro EV home-conversion
> "Electro-Metro"
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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Roland Wiench

Re: Best insulation for battery box and heater?

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Hello Benjamin,

I did not put any heat tape below my batteries.  I wrap the battery pack
with heat blankets that are made by KAT's that you can get at some auto part
store.

The foil back foam board is too soft where the batteries will press down too
much.  Instead I use the DOW Corning Blue foam that is rated for 25 lbs per
sq. inch or 3600 lbs per sq.ft.  My house and foundation is resting on this
type of foam.

I first insulated the entire pickup box with this foam that is 2 inches
thick on the sides and 1 inch thick on the bottom.  It is full glue with
foam glue that is design for this glue.

Then I cover all the foam surfaces with a marine carpet.  The fiberglass
battery box is then cover with this 2 inch foam on the sides and 1 inch foam
on the bottom.  It is also cover with a marine carpet.

The top of the hinge battery box covers have a layer of building aluminum
foil with the shinny side down.  On top of that is a 1/2 inch thick foam
back marine carpet.

The battery box is size, so there is about 5/8 inch space between the
batteries and the wall of the box for inserting the battery heat blankets.
The maximum temperature these heat blankets will get to is 80 F. which is
about 80 watts per 12 inch wide by 36 inch length.  I use four of these
blankets.

If you look at the KAT's Heat Blanket site, they now have longer ones for
larger battery packs.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Nelson" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:20 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Best insulation for battery box and heater?


> I am working on insulating my battery box and would like to install
> battery heat-tape under the batteries.
>
> I did an experiment last night. I cut a piece of standard, 1" thick
> pick foam insulation to the size of my battery box, and routed a
> serpertine pattern into it 1/2" thick, and put some "don't let your
> pipes freeze" heat tape in the track.
>
> I set 4 spare batteries of the same size and type (group 31 lead-acid,
> gels) on top of the foam, and put a packing blanket lightly over the
> top of them, to simulate battery box insulation.
>
> I let the heat-tape run over night.
> This morning, the batteries were a nice temperature, about 20 degrees
> F above ambient. However, the heat tape itself MELTED further down
> into the foam.
>
> Can anyone recommend a different insulating material that is still
> water-resistant and non-conductive for use in an EV?
> Otherwise, how about some sort of "heat spreader design?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Ben Nelson
> Geo Metro EV home-conversion
> "Electro-Metro"
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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Lee Hart

Re: Best insulation for battery box and heater?

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In reply to this post by bennelson
Benjamin Nelson wrote:

> I am working on insulating my battery box and would like to install  
> battery heat-tape under the batteries.
>
> I did an experiment last night. I cut a piece of standard, 1" thick  
> pick foam insulation to the size of my battery box, and routed a  
> serpertine pattern into it 1/2" thick, and put some "don't let your  
> pipes freeze" heat tape in the track.
>
> I set 4 spare batteries of the same size and type (group 31 lead-acid,  
> gels) on top of the foam, and put a packing blanket lightly over the  
> top of them, to simulate battery box insulation.
>
> I let the heat-tape run over night.
> This morning, the batteries were a nice temperature, about 20 degrees  
> F above ambient. However, the heat tape itself MELTED further down  
> into the foam.
>
> Can anyone recommend a different insulating material that is still  
> water-resistant and non-conductive for use in an EV?
> Otherwise, how about some sort of "heat spreader design?

I've done almost exactly what you described, and had much the same
results! (heating wire melting the foam and/or plastic battery case).

To make it actually work, you need to have a heat spreader plate. I used
a sheet of aluminum. The heating wire is taped or glued to the aluminum
sheet. Then put the aluminum sheet under the batteries, wire side down
against the foam, and the batteries on top.

With this aluminum plate, it works fine. No melting, and nice even
heating of the batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Bill Dennis

Where's Uve's

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Yesterday I was using Uve's calculator.  Today the link to geocities
doesn't work any more.  Anybody know what happened to it?

Thanks.

Bill

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Robert Johnston

Re: Where's Uve's

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On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 00:26, Bill Dennis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yesterday I was using Uve's calculator.  Today the link to geocities
> doesn't work any more.  Anybody know what happened to it?

Why yes, I do.

http://blogs.computerworld.com/14969/yahoo_geocities_closes_on_october_26
--
Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
Sent from Regina, SK, Canada

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Bill Dennis

Re: Where's Uve's

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Wow.  Thanks, Robert.  That explains it, all right.
> http://blogs.computerworld.com/14969/yahoo_geocities_closes_on_october_26
>  

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gottdi

Re: Where's Uve's

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So no one saved the site for off line use?


Pete :)


I can host it if it is still available. And keep a copy in case  
someone needs just that calculator.



On Oct 28, 2009, at 11:26 PM, Bill Dennis wrote:

> Yesterday I was using Uve's calculator.  Today the link to geocities
> doesn't work any more.  Anybody know what happened to it?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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mark at evie-systems

Re: Where's Uve's

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There's this site:

http://www.reocities.com


gottdi wrote:
So no one saved the site for off line use?
Evan Tuer

Re: Where's Uve's

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On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 6:59 AM, Bill Dennis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Wow.  Thanks, Robert.  That explains it, all right.
>> http://blogs.computerworld.com/14969/yahoo_geocities_closes_on_october_26


There's an updated version of the calculator here:
http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/

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David Roden

Re: Where's Uve's

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On 29 Oct 2009 at 5:43, [hidden email] wrote:

> So no one saved the site for off line use?

I grabbed a copy to post at evdl.org.  It should be up this weekend.  No
advertising.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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David Roden

Re: Where's Uve's (EVDL Library grows)

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Uve Rick's battery page and motor page, murdered by Yahoo along with the
rest of Geocities, have been resurrected at evdl.org  They're linked from
the EVDL Library at evdl.org/lib/

Direct links :

http://evdl.org/uve/battery.html

http://evdl.org/uve/motor.html

I'm sure the price information on the battery page is of little value, but I
left it there for historical interest.  However, I moved the Peukert
calculator to the top of the page and put the battery information at the
bottom.  I also added an option for reserve capacities besides 25 amps in
the Peukert calculations, and (I hope) clarified the use of the calculator a
bit through some minor revisions of the page layout.

I snarfed a copy of Uve's EV calculator page too, before Geocities shut
down.  However, it has a copyright notice, and I'm a little uncomfortable
with posting it.  Anybody know Uve and want to ask him for clearance?  It
may not be worth it, as some parts of the calculator don't seem to work, and
there are other versions of it on the web elsewhere.

I've also posted a couple of useful pieces culled from an early electrical
textbook, Electricity and Its Applications by Hawkins and staff, published
in 1917 (and thus in the public domain in the USA).  One is an extensive
treatise on use and maintenance of motors and generators.  The other is a
lengthy discussion of real-world EVs in that era.

Both of these came to me via Rod Hower.  Over the last few years, Rod has
been a most generous contributor to the EVDL library, and I really  
appreciate his help.  (I suspect quite a few EV hobbyists do too, as the lib
page is second only to the archive page for number of monthly hits.)

The EVDL library is a growing repository of published data that EV hobbyists
can use.  It includes instructions for building some of the DIY items
mentioned on the EVDL, manuals for older hardware (chargers, controllers,
and the like), and bits of random orphaned technical information.

Contributions for the EVDL library are always welcome at my private email
address (found at evdl.org/help).  Sometimes when I'm busy it takes me a
while to get them posted, but they're always appreciated.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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