Distance per single charge records

[Roger Heuckeroth]

It looks like the Tesla Roadster owns the current "distance travelled  
on a single charge by a production EV" record.  At 313 miles it is  
quite an accomplishment, although it was done at an average speed of  
35 mph.  That is about 170 Wh/mile

http://greenmuze.com/climate/cars/1733-tesla-sets-ev-charge-distance-record-.html

The keyword in the above claim is "production".  The Solectria Sunrise  
was able to do 375 miles with Ovonics Nimh batteries back in 1996.  
And I believe that was accomplished at a more reasonable highway  
speed.  (Maybe Lee Hart can set me straight on that statistic).

I got to wondering what would be possible these days with todays  
LiFePO4 cells.  What if we took the Sunrise II that Lee is working on,  
or a similar aerodynamic car that could travel at highway speeds at  
around 150 Wh/mile, and crammed it full of Lithium.  Could we set a  
record of say double that 600-800 miles?  Maybe over 1000 miles...




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[Roland Wiench]

If the Tesla went 313 miles, but how long does it take to charge. I do not
like the length of time it takes to charge this EV.  Back in 1975, the
Electric Fuel Propulsion company of which I received one of there proto type
EV's, was driven 1056 miles in 24 hours which the 300 AH cobalt 180 volt
cells were charge every hour for 15 to 20 minutes using a pad mount 50 KVA 3
phase 240 VAC 200 amp Delta charger. At that time, the EV weigh 7850 lbs!

They only charge the battery to about 80 to 85% SOC during this test run.
The EV weigh in a 7850 lbs at that time with the batteries making up about
50% of the weight.

This prove that a EV can go over 1000 miles in a day. I ran this EV from
1976 to 1985 with only 3 cell replacements.  I never had to charge the
batteries to the maximum voltage of 232.5 volts for more than 40 minutes and
another 20 minutes for a finish charge using a on-board 50 amp charger.

Today, this company is developing a foam cobalt battery that is three to
four times lighter than the lead battery.

Roland

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records

> It looks like the Tesla Roadster owns the current "distance travelled
> on a single charge by a production EV" record.  At 313 miles it is
> quite an accomplishment, although it was done at an average speed of
> 35 mph.  That is about 170 Wh/mile
>
> http://greenmuze.com/climate/cars/1733-tesla-sets-ev-charge-distance-record-.html
>
> The keyword in the above claim is "production".  The Solectria Sunrise
> was able to do 375 miles with Ovonics Nimh batteries back in 1996.
> And I believe that was accomplished at a more reasonable highway
> speed.  (Maybe Lee Hart can set me straight on that statistic).
>
> I got to wondering what would be possible these days with todays
> LiFePO4 cells.  What if we took the Sunrise II that Lee is working on,
> or a similar aerodynamic car that could travel at highway speeds at
> around 150 Wh/mile, and crammed it full of Lithium.  Could we set a
> record of say double that 600-800 miles?  Maybe over 1000 miles...
>
>
>
>
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>

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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 01:53:52PM -0400, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:

> I got to wondering what would be possible these days with todays  
> LiFePO4 cells.  What if we took the Sunrise II that Lee is working on,  
> or a similar aerodynamic car that could travel at highway speeds at  
> around 150 Wh/mile, and crammed it full of Lithium.  Could we set a  
> record of say double that 600-800 miles?  Maybe over 1000 miles...

I've been thinking along those lines.

I believe the most you can hope to get in the center tunnel of the
Sunrise II is 55 TS-LFP300s, 52.8kwh to dead.  352 miles @ 150 wh/m.  
250-300 miles is more reasonable if it can really get 150 wh/m.

The 55 TS-LFP3000s would be about 1300 lb.  To get 600 mile range @ 150
wh/m, you would have to find space for and carry around 2500+ lb of
battery.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  685 days  9 hours 48 minutes

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[Roger Heuckeroth]

On Oct 30, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 01:53:52PM -0400, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>
>> I got to wondering what would be possible these days with todays
>> LiFePO4 cells.  What if we took the Sunrise II that Lee is working  
>> on,
>> or a similar aerodynamic car that could travel at highway speeds at
>> around 150 Wh/mile, and crammed it full of Lithium.  Could we set a
>> record of say double that 600-800 miles?  Maybe over 1000 miles...
>
> I've been thinking along those lines.
>
> I believe the most you can hope to get in the center tunnel of the
> Sunrise II is 55 TS-LFP300s, 52.8kwh to dead.  352 miles @ 150 wh/m.
> 250-300 miles is more reasonable if it can really get 150 wh/m.
>
> The 55 TS-LFP3000s would be about 1300 lb.  To get 600 mile range @  
> 150
> wh/m, you would have to find space for and carry around 2500+ lb of
> battery.
>

I came to about the same conclusion regarding the Sunrise II.  About  
50 kWhr +/- is max you could get in that center tunnel.

I wonder what it would take to get the Wh/mile down to around 100 or  
less at highway speeds.  Super low drag coefficient and small frontal  
area I suppose.  Not a conversion I'm sure.  Something like the  
Aptera... just thinking out loud.

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[Lawrence Rhodes]

Zinc-Air already did 1000 miles on a charge.  Back before the turn of the century.  But it was a production vehicle.  A 25mph 4 seat NEV.  I think a Yamaha.  Took three days at 25mph.  Lawrence Rhodes...

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[Lee Hart]

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> I believe the most you can hope to get in the center tunnel of the
>> Sunrise II is 55 TS-LFP300s, 52.8kwh to dead. 352 miles @ 150
>> wh/m. 250-300 miles is more reasonable...
>>
>> The 55 TS-LFP3000s would be about 1300 lb.  To get 600 mile range @
>> 150 wh/m, you would have to find space for and carry around 2500+
>> lb of battery.

Comments:

  - The Solectria Sunrise went close to 300 miles on "old fashioned"
    nimh batteries, on ordinary highways at ordinary speeds, with half
    the energy density of the newest lithiums. When they were trying
    to set records (careful driving at low speeds etc.) it went over
    400 miles on a charge.

  - The central tunnel isn't the only place you can put batteries;
    It's just the most convenient. There are no batteries in the trunk
    or back seat, for example.

  - 1300 lbs isn't even close to what the suspension can carry. The
    T'bird/Cougar donor cars weighed over 4800 lbs, and the Sunrise II
    without batteries is only around 1800 lbs.

  - LiFe cells have considerably less energy density than the LiCr
    cells that Tesla is using. If the goal is to set range records,
    use LiCr cells.

  - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without stopping?
    Who would even want to *pay* for it?

  - BAT International packed a golf cart full of *primary* batteries,
    and drove it over 1000 miles on a charge (on a closed track at low
    speeds). What does that prove?

  - All sorts of ridiculous records get set by so-called "production"
    vehicles for racing or marketing purposes (where "production" is
    defined by someone's marketing department for advertising purposes).
    Such data points are way off the curve from normal, and don't really
    prove anything.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[David Roden-3]

On 30 Oct 2009 at 13:53, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:

> The Solectria Sunrise  was able to do 375 miles with Ovonics Nimh
> batteries back in 1996.   And I believe that was accomplished at a
> more reasonable highway  speed.  

Here's a copy of the "Boston to NY" news release :

http://www.evdl.org/pages/boston_ny.html

And here's their 1996 Tour de Sol 375 mile range record release :

http://www.evdl.org/pages/sunrise_tds.html

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[Roger Heuckeroth]

On Oct 30, 2009, at 9:23 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
>
>  - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without  
> stopping?
>    Who would even want to *pay* for it?

Well my Jetta TDI goes over 600 miles driving at 70-75 MPH on a tank  
of diesel.  I drive from NY to SC 4-6 times a year on business.  
That's 850 miles each way and I normally do it in one long trip.  Only  
have to stop once on the way down and once on the way back for fuel.  
However when I take my truck I typically consume about 100 gallons of  
gas for the trip.  Its not uncommon for me to travel 200-300 miles in  
one day

It would be awesome to make those trips in an EV, but that's not  
economically feasible at this time.

>
>  - BAT International packed a golf cart full of *primary* batteries,
>    and drove it over 1000 miles on a charge (on a closed track at low
>    speeds). What does that prove?

Nothing. Pointless with Primary Batts

>
>  - All sorts of ridiculous records get set by so-called "production"
>    vehicles for racing or marketing purposes (where "production" is
>    defined by someone's marketing department for advertising  
> purposes).
>    Such data points are way off the curve from normal, and don't  
> really
>    prove anything.

I agree.  This is more of a mental exercise at this time.

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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 12:33:30PM -0400, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:

>
> On Oct 30, 2009, at 9:23 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >  - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without  
> > stopping?
> >    Who would even want to *pay* for it?
>
> Well my Jetta TDI goes over 600 miles driving at 70-75 MPH on a tank  
> of diesel.  I drive from NY to SC 4-6 times a year on business.  
> That's 850 miles each way and I normally do it in one long trip.  Only  
> have to stop once on the way down and once on the way back for fuel.  
> However when I take my truck I typically consume about 100 gallons of  
> gas for the trip.  Its not uncommon for me to travel 200-300 miles in  
> one day

Same here.  For highway driving we use a TDI Golf.  San Antonio is
about 160 miles round trip.  Dallas Ft Worth is over 200 miles one way.
Houston is about 160 miles.  Texarkana is about 350 miles.  Those are
all places we go once or twice a year.  The point is, with our ~ 120
mile LFP conversion, we can only do Austin (60-80 miles round trip).  
We can do San Antonio one way, but then we need several hours of
charging before we can come home.  Texarkana, Houston, and Dallas are
usually trips of two or more days, so a range that will reach those
places one way can be useful.

Bottom line from my perspective: A 200-400 mile range IS desirable and
would be used.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  686 days 11 hours 16 minutes

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[RodneyCook]

Why not drive your Golf when you want to drive more than 120 miles and drive
your EV the rest of the time?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 3:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 12:33:30PM -0400, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:

>
> On Oct 30, 2009, at 9:23 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >  - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without  
> > stopping?
> >    Who would even want to *pay* for it?
>
> Well my Jetta TDI goes over 600 miles driving at 70-75 MPH on a tank  
> of diesel.  I drive from NY to SC 4-6 times a year on business.  
> That's 850 miles each way and I normally do it in one long trip.  Only  
> have to stop once on the way down and once on the way back for fuel.  
> However when I take my truck I typically consume about 100 gallons of  
> gas for the trip.  Its not uncommon for me to travel 200-300 miles in  
> one day

Same here.  For highway driving we use a TDI Golf.  San Antonio is
about 160 miles round trip.  Dallas Ft Worth is over 200 miles one way.
Houston is about 160 miles.  Texarkana is about 350 miles.  Those are
all places we go once or twice a year.  The point is, with our ~ 120
mile LFP conversion, we can only do Austin (60-80 miles round trip).  
We can do San Antonio one way, but then we need several hours of
charging before we can come home.  Texarkana, Houston, and Dallas are
usually trips of two or more days, so a range that will reach those
places one way can be useful.

Bottom line from my perspective: A 200-400 mile range IS desirable and
would be used.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  686 days 11 hours 16 minutes

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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records

>
> On Oct 30, 2009, at 9:23 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>>  - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without
>> stopping?
>>    Who would even want to *pay* for it?
>
> Well my Jetta TDI goes over 600 miles driving at 70-75 MPH on a tank
> of diesel.  I drive from NY to SC 4-6 times a year on business.
> That's 850 miles each way and I normally do it in one long trip.

      But I'll bet ya stop for eats, or to Piddle? Oh, I KNOW guyz that do
600 miles in one sitting but WHY? Ya wanna streatch yur legs, etc?

  Only
> have to stop once on the way down and once on the way back for fuel.
> However when I take my truck I typically consume about 100 gallons of
> gas for the trip.  Its not uncommon for me to travel 200-300 miles in
> one day
>
> It would be awesome to make those trips in an EV, but that's not
> economically feasible at this time.

      Well, not yet? The First steamboats didn't make it ALL the way on
steam, they cheated ,and sailed under favorable winds, not a bad idea today?
But the Tesla, I think, was reported in this comical, er, chronocle,of going
300 miles on a charge? Hell! Wait til Battery research is made priority,
sorta like the Nuke Bomb, or Jet fighter plane? Sad that these machines of
destruction were priority, and you can argue that elsewhere? But you can
book Jet Blue(happy Jetting! they say, and they DO have a cents of humor as
the damn plane is called an "Air BUS!") and go anywhere ya need to go in a
few hours? Like to the Races??But Battery Tech WILL improve, IF ya remember
the first cell fones and that they ran out of juice, pretty quick, not a BAD
thing as it made yur train/bus ride a lot quieter!IF battery tech goes on
like this yur have your 600-800 mile EV? Chill out, it's coming? As well as
NOT having to rebuild yur Suspension and brakes to do a conversion? IF you
want to, you will be able to just go BUY an EV and drive it home with title
on the passenger seat., as David Roden sez?Oh folks will STILL do
conversions for their personal pleasure, like the legions of 34-38 Ford
"roadsters" with auto trannies, disc brakes and hulking V-8's STUFFED in
their engine rooms!
>>
>>  - BAT International packed a golf cart full of *primary* batteries,
>>    and drove it over 1000 miles on a charge (on a closed track at low
>>    speeds). What does that prove?

    Not a hellova lot?! Bob Aronson in his Mars 2 ran rediculous
range(couple hundered miles) with Led Acids 40YEARS ago, around a trak, at
20-30 MPH? This must have been as much fun as steering a ship! Helmsman(Ship
Drivers) MUST be the most BORING job on the planet! You CAN, if ya ask the
skipper nicely, and he'll let ya try, but in 15 minutes yur ready to move on
to the engine room. Especially if it's a Triple Expansion STEAM
engine?!Turbines are a bore, NOTHING going up and down and roundy- round!

    Seeya

    Bob

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[David Sharpe]

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2009/10/simon-hackett-breaks-ev-world-record-for-distance-on-a-single-charge/

The above indicates that Simon Hackett did 501 ks on a single charge with
his non-legal (in Aus) Tesla doing 55kphr average. He had a vehicle with a
Diesel generating set. As this accompanied him & his supporting team with
other non EV vehicles should we also look at the total fuel use to achieve
this result? Readers will have seen my Melbourne to Canberra & return run
which I did on grid power alone & NO SUPPORT TEAM using a much more humble
EV in which I could have done 160ks on a charge using 140Ahrs of batteries
but averaged about 100ks per charge at 75-80 kphr. So the 500ks would have
needed in XS of 520 Ahrs of batteries with my EV. Charging time would have
been 3X as long with same on board chargers. You've got to charge EVentually
regardless of battery capacity on a long trip.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 12:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records
>
>
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2009, at 9:23 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>>  - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without
>>> stopping?
>>>    Who would even want to *pay* for it?
>>
>> Well my Jetta TDI goes over 600 miles driving at 70-75 MPH on a tank
>> of diesel.  I drive from NY to SC 4-6 times a year on business.
>> That's 850 miles each way and I normally do it in one long trip.
>
>      But I'll bet ya stop for eats, or to Piddle? Oh, I KNOW guyz that do
> 600 miles in one sitting but WHY? Ya wanna streatch yur legs, etc?
>
>  Only
>> have to stop once on the way down and once on the way back for fuel.
>> However when I take my truck I typically consume about 100 gallons of
>> gas for the trip.  Its not uncommon for me to travel 200-300 miles in
>> one day
>>
>> It would be awesome to make those trips in an EV, but that's not
>> economically feasible at this time.
>
>      Well, not yet? The First steamboats didn't make it ALL the way on
> steam, they cheated ,and sailed under favorable winds, not a bad idea
> today?
> But the Tesla, I think, was reported in this comical, er, chronocle,of
> going
> 300 miles on a charge? Hell! Wait til Battery research is made priority,
> sorta like the Nuke Bomb, or Jet fighter plane? Sad that these machines of
> destruction were priority, and you can argue that elsewhere? But you can
> book Jet Blue(happy Jetting! they say, and they DO have a cents of humor
> as
> the damn plane is called an "Air BUS!") and go anywhere ya need to go in a
> few hours? Like to the Races??But Battery Tech WILL improve, IF ya
> remember
> the first cell fones and that they ran out of juice, pretty quick, not a
> BAD
> thing as it made yur train/bus ride a lot quieter!IF battery tech goes on
> like this yur have your 600-800 mile EV? Chill out, it's coming? As well
> as
> NOT having to rebuild yur Suspension and brakes to do a conversion? IF you
> want to, you will be able to just go BUY an EV and drive it home with
> title
> on the passenger seat., as David Roden sez?Oh folks will STILL do
> conversions for their personal pleasure, like the legions of 34-38 Ford
> "roadsters" with auto trannies, disc brakes and hulking V-8's STUFFED in
> their engine rooms!
>>>
>>>  - BAT International packed a golf cart full of *primary* batteries,
>>>    and drove it over 1000 miles on a charge (on a closed track at low
>>>    speeds). What does that prove?
>
>    Not a hellova lot?! Bob Aronson in his Mars 2 ran rediculous
> range(couple hundered miles) with Led Acids 40YEARS ago, around a trak, at
> 20-30 MPH? This must have been as much fun as steering a ship!
> Helmsman(Ship
> Drivers) MUST be the most BORING job on the planet! You CAN, if ya ask the
> skipper nicely, and he'll let ya try, but in 15 minutes yur ready to move
> on
> to the engine room. Especially if it's a Triple Expansion STEAM
> engine?!Turbines are a bore, NOTHING going up and down and roundy- round!
>
>    Seeya
>
>    Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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[Roger Heuckeroth]

On Nov 1, 2009, at 12:45 AM, Bob Rice wrote:

>>> - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without
>>> stopping?
>>>   Who would even want to *pay* for it?
>>
>> Well my Jetta TDI goes over 600 miles driving at 70-75 MPH on a tank
>> of diesel.  I drive from NY to SC 4-6 times a year on business.
>> That's 850 miles each way and I normally do it in one long trip.
>
>      But I'll bet ya stop for eats, or to Piddle? Oh, I KNOW guyz  
> that do
> 600 miles in one sitting but WHY? Ya wanna streatch yur legs, etc?

Sure.  But where do you stop to get a quick half hour charge on the  
way?  Nowhere at this point.  Plus, my charger would take 4 hours from  
20% to 80%, so not real practical either.

Maybe someday...

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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records

>
> On Nov 1, 2009, at 12:45 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
>
>>>> - That said... who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without
>>>> stopping?
>>>>   Who would even want to *pay* for it?
>>>
>>> Well my Jetta TDI goes over 600 miles driving at 70-75 MPH on a tank
>>> of diesel.  I drive from NY to SC 4-6 times a year on business.
>>> That's 850 miles each way and I normally do it in one long trip.
>>
>>      But I'll bet ya stop for eats, or to Piddle? Oh, I KNOW guyz
>> that do
>> 600 miles in one sitting but WHY? Ya wanna streatch yur legs, etc?
>
> Sure.  But where do you stop to get a quick half hour charge on the
> way?  Nowhere at this point.  Plus, my charger would take 4 hours from
> 20% to 80%, so not real practical either.
>
> Maybe someday...

   I THINK the Tesla folks are working on this? When they have several
thousand of them running around MAYBE somebody would set up a small
substation needed to Dump Charge them while you eat!?Charge at 300 amps?
Hell! Why not? IF the batteries could take it. We used to charge Bob
Aronson's Mars 2 Renaults in 45 min at 20-300 amps, 40 years ago!What's a
few hunderd amps to a substation or BIG  biz?With those cables going in the
size of your wrist?

    Seeya

    Bob, NOW if you could hacve a decent food restaurant there, too?
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[Lee Hart]

Lee Hart wrote:
>>> Who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without stopping? Who
>>> would even want to *pay* for it?

Willie McKemie wrote:
> For highway driving we use a TDI Golf. San Antonio 160 miles round
> trip. Dallas Ft Worth 200 miles one way. Houston 160 miles. Texarkana
> 350 miles. Those are all places we go once or twice a year...
> Bottom line from my perspective: A 200-400 mile range IS desirable
> and would be used.

Your situation is representative of many people. They make these long
trips a few times a year. They might drive 100 or 200 miles at a time;
but then stop for a break (lunch, bathroom, or just to stretch their
legs). This is an opportunity to recharge the car as well as yourself.

My point was that virtually no one drives 600 miles without stopping.
It's senseless to design a car to do it, especially if there is a high
cost to do so.

People *want* everything. They want a car as fast as a Ferrari, with the
size of an SUV, that gets 100 mpg, and is as reliable as a Toyota. But
they won't *pay* for such a vehicle.

So while you could cram enough superbatteries into an EV to go 600 miles
on a charge, the cost would be phenomenal. No one would pay for such a
vehicle. It's only useful for marketing stunts.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Lee Hart]

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> But where do you stop to get a quick half hour charge on the  
> way?  Nowhere at this point.  Plus, my charger would take 4 hours from  
> 20% to 80%, so not real practical either.

I've charged at many stores and businesses, just using standard AC
outlets they already have. I always ask, and if I'm a customer, I'm
almost never turned down. I also offer to pay for it, but they rarely
accept it (free electricity :-) ).

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Rich-95]

I can`t help but ask (WHY) man designed a ship that recharges every five
years or so... which came first the chicken or the egg!!!
Rich in Virginia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records

> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>> Who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without stopping? Who
>>>> would even want to *pay* for it?
>
> Willie McKemie wrote:
>> For highway driving we use a TDI Golf. San Antonio 160 miles round
>> trip. Dallas Ft Worth 200 miles one way. Houston 160 miles. Texarkana
>> 350 miles. Those are all places we go once or twice a year...
>> Bottom line from my perspective: A 200-400 mile range IS desirable
>> and would be used.
>
> Your situation is representative of many people. They make these long
> trips a few times a year. They might drive 100 or 200 miles at a time;
> but then stop for a break (lunch, bathroom, or just to stretch their
> legs). This is an opportunity to recharge the car as well as yourself.
>
> My point was that virtually no one drives 600 miles without stopping.
> It's senseless to design a car to do it, especially if there is a high
> cost to do so.
>
> People *want* everything. They want a car as fast as a Ferrari, with the
> size of an SUV, that gets 100 mpg, and is as reliable as a Toyota. But
> they won't *pay* for such a vehicle.
>
> So while you could cram enough superbatteries into an EV to go 600 miles
> on a charge, the cost would be phenomenal. No one would pay for such a
> vehicle. It's only useful for marketing stunts.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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[Roger Heuckeroth]

On Nov 1, 2009, at 1:38 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>> Who *needs* a car that goes 600+ miles without stopping? Who
>>>> would even want to *pay* for it?
>
> Willie McKemie wrote:
>> For highway driving we use a TDI Golf. San Antonio 160 miles round
>> trip. Dallas Ft Worth 200 miles one way. Houston 160 miles. Texarkana
>> 350 miles. Those are all places we go once or twice a year...
>> Bottom line from my perspective: A 200-400 mile range IS desirable
>> and would be used.
>
> Your situation is representative of many people. They make these long
> trips a few times a year. They might drive 100 or 200 miles at a time;
> but then stop for a break (lunch, bathroom, or just to stretch their
> legs). This is an opportunity to recharge the car as well as yourself.
>
> My point was that virtually no one drives 600 miles without stopping.
> It's senseless to design a car to do it, especially if there is a high
> cost to do so.

I don't drive 600 miles in without stopping.  However, I will drive  
2-4 hours in a stretch at 70+ MPH on a regular basis.  If I could go 4  
hours (300 miles) and then charge  within 1/2 hour at a rest area, I  
would be a happy camper.  However, its just not practical with today's  
technology.  Until the super cheap super-battery comes to being...  
I'll stick with my TDI for long trips.
 

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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 01:48:46PM -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > But where do you stop to get a quick half hour charge on the  
> > way?  Nowhere at this point.  Plus, my charger would take 4 hours from  
> > 20% to 80%, so not real practical either.
>
> I've charged at many stores and businesses, just using standard AC
> outlets they already have. I always ask, and if I'm a customer, I'm
> almost never turned down. I also offer to pay for it, but they rarely
> accept it (free electricity :-) ).

My Zivan charges about 8 miles worth per hour.  That's about 9 amps @
220v AC.  I need to charge about 6-7 hours for each hour on the road.  
If I had a suitable 110v opportunity charger, it would likely charge
at the rate of about 4-5 miles per hour.  Bottom line: from my
perspective, opportunity charging for only an hour or so is almost
without value.

I can pull as much as about 250ah out of my pack; if I do, it takes
about 17 hours to fully charge.  I guess I need a bigger charger.
The TS cells can be charged at 3C or 20 minutes.  For my pack, that
would take 468 amps @ 220 VAC according to my calculations.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  687 days 12 hours 43 minutes

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[AMPhibian]

What's the safety factor with Cobalt cells?  Isn't the cobalt in lithium ion batteries the cause of the explosive potential?

Roland Wiench wrote:

If the Tesla went 313 miles, but how long does it take to charge. I do not
like the length of time it takes to charge this EV.  Back in 1975, the
Electric Fuel Propulsion company of which I received one of there proto type
EV's, was driven 1056 miles in 24 hours which the 300 AH cobalt 180 volt
cells were charge every hour for 15 to 20 minutes using a pad mount 50 KVA 3
phase 240 VAC 200 amp Delta charger. At that time, the EV weigh 7850 lbs!

They only charge the battery to about 80 to 85% SOC during this test run.
The EV weigh in a 7850 lbs at that time with the batteries making up about
50% of the weight.

This prove that a EV can go over 1000 miles in a day. I ran this EV from
1976 to 1985 with only 3 cell replacements.  I never had to charge the
batteries to the maximum voltage of 232.5 volts for more than 40 minutes and
another 20 minutes for a finish charge using a on-board 50 amp charger.

Today, this company is developing a foam cobalt battery that is three to
four times lighter than the lead battery.

Roland

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records


> It looks like the Tesla Roadster owns the current "distance travelled
> on a single charge by a production EV" record.  At 313 miles it is
> quite an accomplishment, although it was done at an average speed of
> 35 mph.  That is about 170 Wh/mile
>
> http://greenmuze.com/climate/cars/1733-tesla-sets-ev-charge-distance-record-.html
>
> The keyword in the above claim is "production".  The Solectria Sunrise
> was able to do 375 miles with Ovonics Nimh batteries back in 1996.
> And I believe that was accomplished at a more reasonable highway
> speed.  (Maybe Lee Hart can set me straight on that statistic).
>
> I got to wondering what would be possible these days with todays
> LiFePO4 cells.  What if we took the Sunrise II that Lee is working on,
> or a similar aerodynamic car that could travel at highway speeds at
> around 150 Wh/mile, and crammed it full of Lithium.  Could we set a
> record of say double that 600-800 miles?  Maybe over 1000 miles...
>
>
>
>
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