Elithion communication with PFC-20 and Zilla

[Rob Trahms]

Hi all -
I am upgrading my conversion to 45 Sky Energy SE100AHAs (144V), complete with an Elithion BMS.  I am still researching how this BMS will work with (i.e. communicate with) my existing components, a Manzanita Micro PFC-20 and a Zilla Z1K-HV.  Any advice?  

Thanks,
Rob

[Willie McKemie-3]

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 06:22:42AM -0800, Rob Trahms wrote:
>
> Hi all -
> I am upgrading my conversion to 45 Sky Energy SE100AHAs (144V), complete
> with an Elithion BMS.  I am still researching how this BMS will work with
> (i.e. communicate with) my existing components, a Manzanita Micro PFC-20 and
> a Zilla Z1K-HV.  Any advice?  

That seems like a marginal pack.  And a Zilla overkill.  I presume you
can limit your current draw to about 300 amps with the Zilla?

If you do learn anything about using your BMS, please pass it along.  
The Elithion guy posted here a few weeks ago and then disappeared
without contributing any useful information.  Or answering any
questions.

I have a surplus Elithion BMS for 45 TS-LFP260s which can probably be
used with smaller cells.  All offers considered.
 
--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  689 days  3 hours 52 minutes

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[Rick Beebe]

Willie McKemie wrote:
> I have a surplus Elithion BMS for 45 TS-LFP260s which can probably be
> used with smaller cells.  All offers considered.

Is it surplus because you never used it (why not?) or because you used
it and didn't like it? As I recall you were using the EVPower BMS. Are
you still?

--Rick

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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 10:29:34AM -0500, Rick Beebe wrote:
> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > I have a surplus Elithion BMS for 45 TS-LFP260s which can probably be
> > used with smaller cells.  All offers considered.
>
> Is it surplus because you never used it (why not?) or because you used
> it and didn't like it? As I recall you were using the EVPower BMS. Are
> you still?

The Elithion BMS I have is un-used.

I first intended to use the Elithion BMS on a 45 x TS-LFP260 project.  
The Elithion was several months late in delivery so I used EVPower.  I
then planned to use the Elithion on a 40 x TS-LFP160 project and found
that buying the appropriate cell boards was cost prohibitive, around $40
per cell.  Add to that the difficulty of extracting information from or
about Elithion and the probability that spares will be very costly or
unavailable.  So, I now have my third EVPower BMS in the pipeline.  The
EVPower people are very helpful and accommodating.  Spares are quickly
available and reasonably priced.

BTW, Ian Hooper is now marketing the EVPower BMS for Rod Dilkes:
http://www.evworks.com.au/
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?category=6
The Australian Dollar was $.7-$.75 USD when I first ordered from
EVPpower; it is now about $.91 USD.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  689 days  5 hours 48 minutes

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[Elithion]

Rob Trahms wrote:

I am still researching how this BMS will work with (i.e. communicate with) my existing components, a Manzanita Micro PFC-20 and a Zilla Z1K-HV.

For the Manzanita, please see: http://liionbms.com/php/bms_manzanita_micro.php

If anyone has used a Lithiumate BMS with the 'Zilla, we'd like to hear from you, to help us prepare a page on the 'Zilla, and share that information with everyone, through this page: http://liionbms.com/php/bms_system_wiring.php


Davide Andrea
D'de

[tgintz]

Here's information on BMS ---> charger:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms_manzanita_micro.php

As far as information on BMS ---> Zilla, It looks like its only
overdischarge shutoff:
*http://liionbms.com/php/std_bms_compatibility.php*<http://liionbms.com/php/lipobms.php>



On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Rob Trahms <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi all -
> I am upgrading my conversion to 45 Sky Energy SE100AHAs (144V), complete
> with an Elithion BMS.  I am still researching how this BMS will work with
> (i.e. communicate with) my existing components, a Manzanita Micro PFC-20
> and
> a Zilla Z1K-HV.  Any advice?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
> -----
> Rob Trahms
> [hidden email]
> Electro - the Cabby-EV
> http://chaosmgmt.blogspot.com chaosmgmt.blogspot.com
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://old.nabble.com/Elithion-communication-with-PFC-20-and-Zilla-tp26160154p26160154.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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>

--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 09:05:33AM -0800, Travis Gintz wrote:
> Here's information on BMS ---> charger:
> http://liionbms.com/php/bms_manzanita_micro.php
>
> As far as information on BMS ---> Zilla, It looks like its only
> overdischarge shutoff:
> *http://liionbms.com/php/std_bms_compatibility.php*<http://liionbms.com/php/lipobms.php>

Travis:

Can you supply a description of how the Elithion works?  Why it is
supposed to be "better"?  What the cell boards do?  What communication
the cell boards have with the control unit?  What the control unit
does?

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  689 days  6 hours 50 minutes

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[tgintz]

Willie,

There is a surplus of information on liionbms.com that will give you exactly
what you want.
Start here: http://liionbms.com/php/liionbms.php
Here's a functional description of how it works:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms_functional_descr.php

As far as why its "better", no one said that....in fact, Davide put up a
list of BMS's with their specs and a cost analysis. He gives everyone the
info to make their own decision. Cost, specs, pro's, cons....
Here is that information: http://liionbms.com/php/bms_options.php

Cell boards monitor each cell and report back to the Control Unit. During
charging the control unit, depending on its programming, will tell the shunt
onboard the cell to start shunting current if the voltage reaches a certain
point. The cell boards shunt and monitor each cell. After charge is done,
the control board shuts off the charger. During discharge, the board reports
back the voltage and depending on the level, the control board will turn off
the contactor.

The communication between cells is a 1 wire link, proprietary, back to the
Control Unit.

The control unit oversees the function of the BMS. The reason there is a
Control unit, is that this style of BMS is called a distributed system. A
bunch of dumb cell boards report back to the main processor and ask "what do
we do". The controller, depending on how its programmed, responds
accordingly. The CU, also controls a cooling fan, monitors current for the
battery side as well as the charge current. It can shut off the contactor,
charger and throttle back. There is also SOC output, Canbus and RS232 output
for external displays/devices (logging, Gauge display, etc). The CU is
completely programmable.

Hope that helps answer your questions.

Regards,
Travis Gintz
Technical Sales
EVComponents.com

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Willie McKemie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 09:05:33AM -0800, Travis Gintz wrote:
> > Here's information on BMS ---> charger:
> > http://liionbms.com/php/bms_manzanita_micro.php
> >
> > As far as information on BMS ---> Zilla, It looks like its only
> > overdischarge shutoff:
> > *http://liionbms.com/php/std_bms_compatibility.php*<
> http://liionbms.com/php/lipobms.php>
>
> Travis:
>
> Can you supply a description of how the Elithion works?  Why it is
> supposed to be "better"?  What the cell boards do?  What communication
> the cell boards have with the control unit?  What the control unit
> does?
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  689 days  6 hours 50 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 10:16:39AM -0800, Travis Gintz wrote:
> Willie,
>
> There is a surplus of information on liionbms.com that will give you exactly
> what you want.
> Start here: http://liionbms.com/php/liionbms.php
> Here's a functional description of how it works:
> http://liionbms.com/php/bms_functional_descr.php

That is MOST helpful, thanks!  I wondered why I haven't found that
before and noticed that it was last modified today.  Perhaps it was
just put up today.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  689 days  7 hours 49 minutes

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[tgintz]

Its only been recently mofidied. I've been reading up on the elithion
(because I sell it at EVComponents.com) for the last month or two. I think
he adds helpful stuff to it as he goes. The manual has been online for a
while now.

Sometimes its hard to find the info (because there is so much of it), but
his search feature really helped me in finding what I needed.

Hope that helps you out, take care
Travis Gintz
Technical Sales,
EVComponents.com

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Willie McKemie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 10:16:39AM -0800, Travis Gintz wrote:
> > Willie,
> >
> > There is a surplus of information on liionbms.com that will give you
> exactly
> > what you want.
> > Start here: http://liionbms.com/php/liionbms.php
> > Here's a functional description of how it works:
> > http://liionbms.com/php/bms_functional_descr.php
>
> That is MOST helpful, thanks!  I wondered why I haven't found that
> before and noticed that it was last modified today.  Perhaps it was
> just put up today.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  689 days  7 hours 49 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
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[Bill Dennis]

I don't know if Rich follows the standard conventions, but for a 6-pin RJ
connector, when you look at the female plug head-on, if the tang goes in
facing down, then pin 1 is the leftmost pin.  If the tang goes in facing
up, then pin 1 is the rightmost pin.  You're probably best to just measure
it.  Plug a short left of cable into the PFC charger then go to the other
end of the cable and put the positive lead of your voltage meter on the
leftmost pin and the negative lead of the voltage meter on the 4th pin from
the left.  If you read positive 5V, then pin 1 is the leftmost pin.  If
not, reverse the meter:  put the positive lead on the rightmost pin and the
negative lead on the 4th pin from the left.  You should read +5V, meaning
that pin 1 is the rightmost pin.

Bill

Original Message:
-----------------
From: tomw [hidden email]
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:29:50 -0800 (PST)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Elithion communication with PFC-20 and Zilla



If set up this resistive voltage divider so the charger output is cut back
to
say 0.5A when the relay is turned on, does it continue this output until the
timer times out and then shut off completely (assuming switchpack switch 3
is ON, so the time starts with regbus input)?  Also, is pin1 the left most
pin on the regbus input to the charger when viewing it from the front, ie
blue wire on the regbus cable if made per the manual "tang down blue right,
tdbr"?

Thanks,
Tom



wjdennis wrote:

>
> On a PFC-20 or PFC-30, you can easily turn off the charger output by
> putting around 4.4V on pin 2 of the external Regbus connector to simulate
> thermal cutback. In the diagram below (view with fixed width font), SW1 is
> an opto or relay.  Close the switch to stop the charger from putting out
> any amps.  If you have the toggle switches on the PFC-20 set to stop
> charging totally as soon as thermal cutback is detected, then you'll stop
> charging as soon as any cell goes over-voltage.
>
> + Pin 1 (+5V)
> |
> \ SW1
> |
>>
>> R1 1K
>>
> |
> + Pin 2
> |
>>
>> R2 10K
>>
> |
> + Pin 4 (Gnd)
>
> Close SW1, and pin 2 sees over 4.4V. This is the same as the Regbus
> telling the charger to go into thermal cutback.  For fancier control, you
> can vary the voltage on Pin 2.  The lower the voltage, the less the PFC
> cuts back.  For example, put 4.0V on Pin 2, and the charger may cut back
> to
> only 2 amps.  Put 3.5V on Pin 2, and maybe the PFC cuts back to 6 amps
> (these numbers are samples only--experiment to get the correct values).
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology -
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>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Elithion-communication-with-PFC-20-and-Zilla-tp463413p5
10143.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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[Bill Dennis]

On a PFC-20 or PFC-30, you can easily turn off the charger output by
putting around 4.4V on pin 2 of the external Regbus connector to simulate
thermal cutback. In the diagram below (view with fixed width font), SW1 is
an opto or relay.  Close the switch to stop the charger from putting out
any amps.  If you have the toggle switches on the PFC-20 set to stop
charging totally as soon as thermal cutback is detected, then you'll stop
charging as soon as any cell goes over-voltage.

+ Pin 1 (+5V)
|
\ SW1
|
>
> R1 1K
>
|
+ Pin 2
|
>
> R2 10K
>
|
+ Pin 4 (Gnd)

Close SW1, and pin 2 sees over 4.4V. This is the same as the Regbus
telling the charger to go into thermal cutback.  For fancier control, you
can vary the voltage on Pin 2.  The lower the voltage, the less the PFC
cuts back.  For example, put 4.0V on Pin 2, and the charger may cut back to
only 2 amps.  Put 3.5V on Pin 2, and maybe the PFC cuts back to 6 amps
(these numbers are samples only--experiment to get the correct values).

Bill Dennis


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[tomw]

If set up this resistive voltage divider so the charger output is cut back to say 0.5A when the relay is turned on, does it continue this output until the timer times out and then shut off completely (assuming switchpack switch 3 is ON, so the time starts with regbus input)?  Also, is pin1 the left most pin on the regbus input to the charger when viewing it from the front, ie blue wire on the regbus cable if made per the manual "tang down blue right, tdbr"?

Thanks,
Tom

wjdennis wrote:

On a PFC-20 or PFC-30, you can easily turn off the charger output by
putting around 4.4V on pin 2 of the external Regbus connector to simulate
thermal cutback. In the diagram below (view with fixed width font), SW1 is
an opto or relay.  Close the switch to stop the charger from putting out
any amps.  If you have the toggle switches on the PFC-20 set to stop
charging totally as soon as thermal cutback is detected, then you'll stop
charging as soon as any cell goes over-voltage.

+ Pin 1 (+5V)
|
\ SW1
|
>
> R1 1K
>
|
+ Pin 2
|
>
> R2 10K
>
|
+ Pin 4 (Gnd)

Close SW1, and pin 2 sees over 4.4V. This is the same as the Regbus
telling the charger to go into thermal cutback.  For fancier control, you
can vary the voltage on Pin 2.  The lower the voltage, the less the PFC
cuts back.  For example, put 4.0V on Pin 2, and the charger may cut back to
only 2 amps.  Put 3.5V on Pin 2, and maybe the PFC cuts back to 6 amps
(these numbers are samples only--experiment to get the correct values).

Bill Dennis


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[Tom Parker]

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 07:29 -0800, tomw wrote:
> If set up this resistive voltage divider so the charger output is cut back to
> say 0.5A when the relay is turned on, does it continue this output until the
> timer times out and then shut off completely (assuming switchpack switch 3
> is ON, so the time starts with regbus input)?  Also, is pin1 the left most
> pin on the regbus input to the charger when viewing it from the front, ie
> blue wire on the regbus cable if made per the manual "tang down blue right,
> tdbr"?

Elithon have a good page explaining how to wire it, including pictures:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms_manzanita_micro.php You should be able to
adapt their on-off circuit diagram to do on/0.5A, but I'm not sure how
effective this will be if you're not using feedback and just choosing a
fixed resistor.

Do include some way to shut the charger off completely if there is a
fault.

One big warning, this interface isn't isolated from the mains or the
battery. You can get a shock off it and you can destroy the charger if
you make a mistake. I guess it might even be possible to do both at the
same time.

A friend of mine grounded a wire or connected it to the battery (I can't
remember which) from this interface by mistake and blew up everything.
Apparently when he sent it back for repairs they had to replace all the
electronics inside.

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[Steven Ciciora]

A friend of mine hooked a (grounded) scope probe to the regbus port and fortunately only fried a couple of socketed DIP op-amps... but still be careful.  As a kid I blew up my Heathkit O'scope by hooking the ground wire to a non-isolated power supply...

- Steve

--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Tom Parker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Tom Parker <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Elithion communication with PFC-20 and Zilla
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 6:28 AM
> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 07:29 -0800,
> tomw wrote:
> > If set up this resistive voltage divider so the
> charger output is cut back to
> > say 0.5A when the relay is turned on, does it continue
> this output until the
> > timer times out and then shut off completely (assuming
> switchpack switch 3
> > is ON, so the time starts with regbus input)? 
> Also, is pin1 the left most
> > pin on the regbus input to the charger when viewing it
> from the front, ie
> > blue wire on the regbus cable if made per the manual
> "tang down blue right,
> > tdbr"?
>
> Elithon have a good page explaining how to wire it,
> including pictures:
> http://liionbms.com/php/bms_manzanita_micro.php You
> should be able to
> adapt their on-off circuit diagram to do on/0.5A, but I'm
> not sure how
> effective this will be if you're not using feedback and
> just choosing a
> fixed resistor.
>
> Do include some way to shut the charger off completely if
> there is a
> fault.
>
> One big warning, this interface isn't isolated from the
> mains or the
> battery. You can get a shock off it and you can destroy the
> charger if
> you make a mistake. I guess it might even be possible to do
> both at the
> same time.
>
> A friend of mine grounded a wire or connected it to the
> battery (I can't
> remember which) from this interface by mistake and blew up
> everything.
> Apparently when he sent it back for repairs they had to
> replace all the
> electronics inside.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>

     

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[tomw]

Are you saying there is AC supply voltage on the regbus pins??

Tom Parker wrote:

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 07:29 -0800, tomw wrote:
> If set up this resistive voltage divider so the charger output is cut back to
> say 0.5A when the relay is turned on, does it continue this output until the
> timer times out and then shut off completely (assuming switchpack switch 3
> is ON, so the time starts with regbus input)?  Also, is pin1 the left most
> pin on the regbus input to the charger when viewing it from the front, ie
> blue wire on the regbus cable if made per the manual "tang down blue right,
> tdbr"?

Elithon have a good page explaining how to wire it, including pictures:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms_manzanita_micro.php You should be able to
adapt their on-off circuit diagram to do on/0.5A, but I'm not sure how
effective this will be if you're not using feedback and just choosing a
fixed resistor.

Do include some way to shut the charger off completely if there is a
fault.

One big warning, this interface isn't isolated from the mains or the
battery. You can get a shock off it and you can destroy the charger if
you make a mistake. I guess it might even be possible to do both at the
same time.

A friend of mine grounded a wire or connected it to the battery (I can't
remember which) from this interface by mistake and blew up everything.
Apparently when he sent it back for repairs they had to replace all the
electronics inside.

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[Tom Parker]

On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 08:24 -0800, tomw wrote:
> Are you saying there is AC supply voltage on the regbus pins??

Yes, the PFC-20 has AC supply voltage on the battery and the regbus.


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[tomw]

I turned on my PFC30 for the first time today and it blew the fuse in the charger - or it was blown.  I had the DC white wire connected to the most positive terminal of the pack and the DC black wire connected to the shunt, which is connected to the negative most terminal.  the charger was the last thing I connected.  The cells, shunt regulators, contactor, and shunt had all be connected for days, and pack voltage checked a number of times to ensure it added up to the number of cells times the cell voltage I measured.

I have an EKM meter on the AC input to the charger, and the charger never pulled over 1A and 18W.  Even when I adjusted the current knob up a bit to see if the current reading changed.  That's when I noticed the voltage limit light was on, so I turned the volts trimmer clockwise to increase the voltage.  I turned and turned with no effect, until the red warning light came on, when I quickly shut off the charger.  It was on a total of maybe 3-4 minutes.  I don't know what to change.  Polarity of the DC outputs to the cells is fine.  DVM voltage measurement shows the polarity is correct.  I checked continuity from the white DC output wire at the fuse in the charger to the most positive terminal in the pack where it is connected and it is good.  The Anderson connector seems fine also.  I am concerned I might damage the charger when I turn it on again, but I can't see anything wrong.   Any suggestions?

Tom

Tom Parker wrote:

On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 08:24 -0800, tomw wrote:
> Are you saying there is AC supply voltage on the regbus pins??

Yes, the PFC-20 has AC supply voltage on the battery and the regbus.


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