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FM over the internet...

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David Thorp-2

FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

G'day all...

I'm tending for a project here in Brisbane (Australia) early this
coming week with a printing company, and they've got some specific
concerns that I'd like to be able to address or answer as best as
anyone possibly can. I have some answers of my own, but I'd love to
hear what opinions any of you have, and thus broaden my perspective.

My competition for this project is a company offering a web based
solution, for around A$30-40K. I know little more than that, so I'm
afraid I can't elaborate much.

--------
The requirements are:

Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.

They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.

They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole traders
working from home - also able to tap into most of the central database
system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs, etc. and then liaise
with the central factory to get the production done and dispatched.

They also want to have their customers log into the system for very
limited functionality.

I'm proposing we make what the customers need web compatible and
publish it with IWP or CWP. But allow the company's offices and
distributors access to full functionality with FMP clients over the
internet.

I'm an experienced FM developer and have built many FM systems, small
and large, for many clients. However, I admit my experience with
accessing FM over the internet is somewhat limited, so that's where my
questions lie...
--------

--------
The three biggest questions are:

1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+ internet
connection at the server end, and also at each client accessing it.
An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally over LAN, and
then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the internet from FMP
clients (ie. not from a web browser).

• So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
• Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg. 2Mbit
SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or will
standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be sufficient?
• Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/CWP
solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?

2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is installing
FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good enough?

3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it be
better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively easy
to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also great
for end users building their own stuff, because it's ridiculously user
friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are *they* better off
hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys to write them a custom
FM based solution as opposed to hiring any other consultant to write
them a custom web based solution?
--------

Again, please don't think me an idiot. :) I am an experienced FM
developer and consultant, and already have some answers to the above
questions, but I really would like to hear what others think on these
topics, so anyone willing to chime in on any or all of the above
questions (no matter how simple or complex, obvious or not), I will be
very grateful for your opinions.

Thanks!

--
David Thorp
All About Abundance Pty Ltd
Brisbane QLD Australia
[hidden email]
ph: +61-4-0558-8065
fx: +61-2-9475-1444

All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
medium businesses.

****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
dramatically expand our business.

It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.

Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
are welcome.

If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
above.
***********************************************************

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G. Pupita

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

Hi David

> I'm tending for a project here in Brisbane (Australia) early this
> coming week with a printing company, and they've got some specific
> concerns that I'd like to be able to address or answer as best as
> anyone possibly can. I have some answers of my own, but I'd love to
> hear what opinions any of you have, and thus broaden my perspective.
> My competition for this project is a company offering a web based
> solution, for around A$30-40K. I know little more than that, so I'm
> afraid I can't elaborate much.
> The requirements are:
> Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
> Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.
> They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
> central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.
> They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole
> traders working from home - also able to tap into most of the
> central database system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs,
> etc. and then liaise with the central factory to get the production
> done and dispatched.
> They also want to have their customers log into the system for very
> limited functionality.

[...]

> The three biggest questions are:
> 1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
> internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
> accessing it. An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally
> over LAN, and then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the internet
> from FMP clients (ie. not from a web browser).
> • So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
> • Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg.
> 2Mbit SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or
> will standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be
> sufficient?
> • Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/CWP
> solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?
> 2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is installing
> FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good enough?
> 3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
> what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
> be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
> developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively easy
> to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also great
> for end users building their own stuff, because it's ridiculously
> user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are *they* better
> off hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys to write them a
> custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring any other consultant
> to write them a custom web based solution?

My opinion is that you'd better off with a FM-based solution accessed
via LAN and remotely
If a WAN access turns out to be too slow I'd throw in a Terminal
Server and use that for the remote connections
The numbers you mention (10 LAN users, 40-50 remote users) are
compatible with a TS approach, and with the fact that only known users
will be granted access; occasional users will enter using a web
interface
A seasoned developer is required to make this work, given that you'll
have to design for different access levels

There are several advantages in it, the foremost being that the
solution is FileMaker-based and not web-based, which means you can
take advantage of FM's powerful scripting engine and ease of use
Also maintainance and further developments would work out nicely
A final bonus comes with TS: you can do remote management

I've a similar setup for of a solution of mine: it started years ago
for local LAN usage and then grew up to be used by some 30-50 local
users and 20-30 users around Europe
The solution is extremely script-intensive to have every possible
procedure automatized; remote maintainance via TS has turned out to be
a gigantic bonus, allowing for within-24-h fixes and adjustements

Ciao
G. Pupita
Certified FileMaker 10 Developer
FileMaker Business Alliance

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David Thorp-2

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

Hi G.

Thanks for the suggestions...

I apologise I should have mentioned, they're actually already using a
TS based FM system, and they hate it. I won't go into all the reasons
why, but they want to move away from TS.

If you have any further thoughts on FM over WAN I'm keen to hear those
(as you did mention that at the start of your post)...?

Thanks again.
David.

On 27/06/2009, at 4:49 PM, G. Pupita wrote:

> Hi David
>> I'm tending for a project here in Brisbane (Australia) early this
>> coming week with a printing company, and they've got some specific
>> concerns that I'd like to be able to address or answer as best as
>> anyone possibly can. I have some answers of my own, but I'd love
>> to hear what opinions any of you have, and thus broaden my
>> perspective.
>> My competition for this project is a company offering a web based
>> solution, for around A$30-40K. I know little more than that, so
>> I'm afraid I can't elaborate much.
>> The requirements are:
>> Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
>> Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.
>> They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
>> central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.
>> They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole
>> traders working from home - also able to tap into most of the
>> central database system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs,
>> etc. and then liaise with the central factory to get the production
>> done and dispatched.
>> They also want to have their customers log into the system for very
>> limited functionality.
> [...]
>> The three biggest questions are:
>> 1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
>> internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
>> accessing it. An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally
>> over LAN, and then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the
>> internet from FMP clients (ie. not from a web browser).
>> • So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
>> • Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg.
>> 2Mbit SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or
>> will standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be
>> sufficient?
>> • Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/CWP
>> solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?
>> 2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is
>> installing FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good
>> enough?
>> 3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
>> what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
>> be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
>> developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively
>> easy to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also
>> great for end users building their own stuff, because it's
>> ridiculously user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are
>> *they* better off hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys
>> to write them a custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring any
>> other consultant to write them a custom web based solution?
>
>
> My opinion is that you'd better off with a FM-based solution
> accessed via LAN and remotely
> If a WAN access turns out to be too slow I'd throw in a Terminal
> Server and use that for the remote connections
> The numbers you mention (10 LAN users, 40-50 remote users) are
> compatible with a TS approach, and with the fact that only known
> users will be granted access; occasional users will enter using a
> web interface
> A seasoned developer is required to make this work, given that
> you'll have to design for different access levels
>
> There are several advantages in it, the foremost being that the
> solution is FileMaker-based and not web-based, which means you can
> take advantage of FM's powerful scripting engine and ease of use
> Also maintainance and further developments would work out nicely
> A final bonus comes with TS: you can do remote management
>
> I've a similar setup for of a solution of mine: it started years ago
> for local LAN usage and then grew up to be used by some 30-50 local
> users and 20-30 users around Europe
> The solution is extremely script-intensive to have every possible
> procedure automatized; remote maintainance via TS has turned out to
> be a gigantic bonus, allowing for within-24-h fixes and adjustements
>
> Ciao
> G. Pupita
> Certified FileMaker 10 Developer
> FileMaker Business Alliance
>
>
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/
>
>

--
David Thorp
All About Abundance Pty Ltd
Brisbane QLD Australia
[hidden email]
ph: +61-4-0558-8065
fx: +61-2-9475-1444

All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
medium businesses.

****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
dramatically expand our business.

It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.

Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
are welcome.

If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
above.
***********************************************************

--
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Steve Cassidy

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

On 27 Jun 2009, at 03:15, David Thorp wrote:

> 3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
> what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
> be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
> developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively
> easy to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also
> great for end users building their own stuff, because it's
> ridiculously user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are
> *they* better off hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys
> to write them a custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring any
> other consultant to write them a custom web based solution?
> --------
>
>
> Again, please don't think me an idiot. :) I am an experienced FM
> developer and consultant, and already have some answers to the
> above questions, but I really would like to hear what others think
> on these topics, so anyone willing to chime in on any or all of the
> above questions (no matter how simple or complex, obvious or not),
> I will be very grateful for your opinions.

Hi David,

Interesting questions. Mostly questions that I have little experience
with. You may think of ME as an idiot if you like; raises fewer
expectations if you do!

I have set up FMP over WAN in a number of limited situations. I do
not find it that great, though this has always been with whatever
server is already in place, using whatever WAN connection is already
in place. My opinion is that it is OK for occasional use but that's
about it. The major usability problems I've heard from users are:

- reliability of the WAN; the slightest glitch and FMP loses the
connection
- speed; you need to design specifically for this low-bandwidth mode
- computer sleep mode; similarly, FMP loses the connection (hmmm...
lots of notebook users out on the WAN!)

So the persistence of the FMP-Server connection, which brings all the
benefits we see in scripting and so on, is a real problem when the
connection is not 100%. That and the bandwidth. You may be able to
control the WAN connection between the two main offices; but I think
the 'most of the functionality' needed by independent traders is
going to be a problem.

The FMP + CWP alternative is a possibility, but in your case some of
your WAN users need the same functionality as back office users. This
means completely replicating the interface in CWP. If you are going
that far, why bother with FMP at all? You are likely to end up with a
more expensive solution than your competitors, who only have to
design once for the web. If your WAN users require only limited
functionality, I can see that this route may work. In your case, I
have my doubts.

The real saving grace of FMP is ease and speed of development. If
your client is interested in incremental development and deployment
-- and probably they should be -- Filemaker offers quite a lot of
advantages. On the other hand, if they want to design and build a
complete solution for big-bang type deployment, I'd say the
advantages of Filemaker fade. In this case, the need for identical
FMP and CWP interfaces would seem to undermine this advantage.

Personally, I think I'd be very wary of this tender. And I assume you
are too, since you are asking for input. You could of course offer a
non-FMP solution. (If you have the expertise to build a CWP interface
that replicates the functionality of FMP, presumably you could do
something similar using a different database engine?)

All the above to be taken with a pinch of salt; I am bit of an idiot
when it comes to WAN deployments...

Steve

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Colin MacGregor

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

I do FileMaker solutions with a web services component, in which
multiple users have shared access to FM Server hosted databases via
the internet. That may be relevant experience for answering your
questions.

> 1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
> internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
> accessing it. An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally
> over LAN, and then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the internet
> from FMP clients (ie. not from a web browser).
I think the most likely problem is the ansynchronous and often
inconsistent speed of ADSL connections, at the server and client ends.
It's possible that FM Server may lose track of FMP client sessions,
which could corrupt the database over time. You can minimise the risk
by keeping client/server interactions transactional and small, but I
don't think that's enough for 50 people using all of the system. Also,
any graphics in the database may be vulnerable to corruption by comms
glitches because of the time it takes to transfer them, so the faster
the better. I haven't had problems with faster synchronous LAN to LAN
connections.

> 2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is installing
> FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good enough?
A dedicated box has lots of advantages:
it can be self contained as a complete FileMaker / web server,
you can maintain it,
no need for a server OS,
no interactions with other systems,
you're in control.
I'd go for that every time, preferably a Mac for reliability, ease of
maintenance and its Apache for the supporting web pages. Tenon iTools
fits very well for managing a desktop Mac as a FileMaker / web server.
The Mac mini is also a surprisingly effective little box. If you run
it from a fast external Firewire disk, its slower internal disk is
fine for Time Machine back ups.

> 3. We all love FM here. But ultimately, what's so great about it,
> for a client like this one?

For light duty external users, IWP is terrific.
Otherwise I'd suggest the usual FileMaker advantages: flexibility,
reliability, fast development, upgradability, web integration, low
cost overall, easy to allow customers limited admin/developer access
to customise, etc. With all that going for them, FileMaker developers
can do better, faster, more flexible, less costly jobs for customers
than someone who's doing a custom integration of Access, an SQL DB,
PHP, etc. But you know that anyway!

Kind regards,

Colin

+++

Colin MacGregor

Resolute Systems (UK) Limited
9 Marlow Road
High Wycombe
Bucks
HP11 1TA
UK

www.resolutesystems.co.uk

tel: 01494 520088
cell: 07974 152733
Skype: resysuk

registered in England and Wales
company registration number 3826934
VAT registration number 776 3622 04

FileMaker Business Alliance member
FileMaker TechNet member

On 27 Jun 2009, at 03:15, David Thorp wrote:

> G'day all...
>
> I'm tending for a project here in Brisbane (Australia) early this
> coming week with a printing company, and they've got some specific
> concerns that I'd like to be able to address or answer as best as
> anyone possibly can. I have some answers of my own, but I'd love to
> hear what opinions any of you have, and thus broaden my perspective.
>
> My competition for this project is a company offering a web based
> solution, for around A$30-40K. I know little more than that, so I'm
> afraid I can't elaborate much.
>
>
> --------
> The requirements are:
>
> Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
> Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.
>
> They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
> central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.
>
> They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole
> traders working from home - also able to tap into most of the
> central database system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs,
> etc. and then liaise with the central factory to get the production
> done and dispatched.
>
> They also want to have their customers log into the system for very
> limited functionality.
>
> I'm proposing we make what the customers need web compatible and
> publish it with IWP or CWP. But allow the company's offices and
> distributors access to full functionality with FMP clients over the
> internet.
>
> I'm an experienced FM developer and have built many FM systems,
> small and large, for many clients. However, I admit my experience
> with accessing FM over the internet is somewhat limited, so that's
> where my questions lie...
> --------
>
>
> --------
> The three biggest questions are:
>
> 1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
> internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
> accessing it. An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally
> over LAN, and then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the internet
> from FMP clients (ie. not from a web browser).
>
> • So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
> • Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg.
> 2Mbit SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or
> will standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be
> sufficient?
> • Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/CWP
> solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?
>
>
> 2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is installing
> FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good enough?
>
>
> 3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
> what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
> be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
> developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively easy
> to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also great
> for end users building their own stuff, because it's ridiculously
> user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are *they* better
> off hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys to write them a
> custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring any other consultant
> to write them a custom web based solution?
> --------
>
>
> Again, please don't think me an idiot. :) I am an experienced FM
> developer and consultant, and already have some answers to the above
> questions, but I really would like to hear what others think on
> these topics, so anyone willing to chime in on any or all of the
> above questions (no matter how simple or complex, obvious or not), I
> will be very grateful for your opinions.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> --
> David Thorp
> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
> Brisbane QLD Australia
> [hidden email]
> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>
> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
> medium businesses.
>
>
>
> ****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
> We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
> dramatically expand our business.
>
> It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
> very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.
>
> Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
> exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
> are welcome.
>
> If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
> please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
> above.
> ***********************************************************
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/
>
>

--
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David McQueen

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

Hi David,

Comments interspersed below

One of the commentors described loss of connection problems. I have
a potential client, chiropractor, who already has a web based
solution to his office management. He is in Barrie here and the
solution is served from Ottawa, about 200 miles away. He paid about
$60,000 for this system and it is dropping data and becoming
non-responsive on a regular basis. So loss of connection is not just
a FileMaker problem. Don't get buffaloed by any comments that web is
more robust "Just because".

>
>--------
>The requirements are:
>
>Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
>Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.
>
>They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
>central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.

These guys are going to put the heaviest load on the system. They
will be the ones "processing data".

>
>They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole
>traders working from home - also able to tap into most of the
>central database system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs,
>etc. and then liaise with the central factory to get the production
>done and dispatched.

I am guessing that the load from the distributors is not going to be
that great. They will be entering data for the most part. They are
not the ones doing company wide summary reports etc.

>
>They also want to have their customers log into the system for very
>limited functionality.

They are view only - basically transmitting screen and click info
with some searching.

>
>I'm proposing we make what the customers need web compatible and
>publish it with IWP or CWP. But allow the company's offices and
>distributors access to full functionality with FMP clients over the
>internet.
>
>I'm an experienced FM developer and have built many FM systems,
>small and large, for many clients. However, I admit my experience
>with accessing FM over the internet is somewhat limited, so that's
>where my questions lie...
>--------
>
>
>--------
>The three biggest questions are:
>
>1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
>internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
>accessing it.
>An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally over LAN, and
>then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the internet from FMP
>clients (ie. not from a web browser).
>
>* So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
>* Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg.
>2Mbit SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or
>will standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be
>sufficient?
>* Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/CWP
>solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?

I can't tell you specifics. I have about five solutions being
accessed over WAN. One has been deployed in several organizations as
FileMaker, Terminal Services and Citrix Server. In all cases, the
biggest pipe out is the best.

>
>2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is installing
>FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good enough?

A dedicated box. If you want to go cheap, a Mac mini. One of my
clients is serving over 100 seats, multiple solutions, multiple
locations with one dedicated Mac Mini. He swears it is the best bang
for the buck. In contrast, they also have a web based payroll/quasi
erp system where they have had to go to high power dedicated rack
servers. They are still fighting with them after about a year and a
half of deployment. This is a national or international payroll
services provider.

>
>
>3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
>what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
>be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
>developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively easy
>to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also great
>for end users building their own stuff, because it's ridiculously
>user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are *they*
>better off hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys to write
>them a custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring any other
>consultant to write them a custom web based solution?
>--------

A couple of things here. People hate dealing with computer system
consultants because we all claim to have the greatest thing since
sliced bread. In reality, part of the problem on what is "best" comes
down to what do you have in your tool box. If what you have is a
hammer, everything becomes a nail. If you have five consultants in a
room, chances are each one is pushing a different tool.

Go with "This is the tool I use. These are the benefits. Does this
fit your operation?"

Here are some of the benefits you have:

1. Rapid development

2. Flexibility over time

3. A mix of user experiences. The desk top users get a desk top
application that functions as such. This includes you printing and
reporting ability. Occasional users get a web experience but it is
accessible with universally available tools ie a web browser.

4. A database engine that has had sustained profitability and is
backed by a cash rich fortune 500 company - It will not orphan.

5. Most web based systems end up being subscription systems.
Subscription - the gift that keeps on giving. Unfortunately, it is
also the setup where the client does not know the overall traffic.
Your system sounds owner based. Therefore the client retains control
of the hardware and software to supply their load. The fee you
indicate at the start, may just be a start. Your lifetime cost of
ownership may be much much lower than theirs.

>
>Again, please don't think me an idiot. :) I am an experienced FM
>developer and consultant, and already have some answers to the above
>questions, but I really would like to hear what others think on
>these topics, so anyone willing to chime in on any or all of the
>above questions (no matter how simple or complex, obvious or not),
>I will be very grateful for your opinions.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>--
>David Thorp
>All About Abundance Pty Ltd
>Brisbane QLD Australia
>[hidden email]
>ph: +61-4-0558-8065
>fx: +61-2-9475-1444

In general, everyone is willing to tell you what you cannot do. Stick
to talking about what you can do and do well. Then the customer gets
minimal surprises. If the parameters are such that you cannot do a
good job - walk away.

Watch the claims for other system types. All have their strengths
and weaknesses. But from what I have seen, and lost bids and hence
money to, many of them in the end were guys in glass houses throwing
rocks. And they were not small guys and they were not competing on
price.

Just my $.02 CDN on a Saturday morning. Hope it helps.

Dave McQueen
--
.................................
David A. McQueen in the kitchen
Sent from my 1996 Powerbook 1400
64 Whopping Megs of memory
32 Gig Hard Drive
Screaming 333 G3 Processor
OS 8.6
Eudora 5.0.1

--
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Peter Newland-2

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

David,

Just saw your post late this evening, firstly I agree with most of David and
Colin and Steve¹s comments.

We tried remote hosting for a Canberra client with terrible results and have
now gone to a Windows 2008 server with Terminal Services...it¹s fast over
our ADSL2 connection from Algester. We¹ve taken a second client to Terminal
Services as well and again the speed is very good...we can even develop over
the connection.

It¹s not an overly cheap solution but certainly seems to have significant
advantage. Having said that we are dedicated Mac users and the Canberra
client is also fully Mac as are their sites in Sydney and Darwin...their
Brisbane office is Windows and they are all co-existing well.

We are also using IWP for some of the users of the Brisbane client and the
speed seems to be acceptable.

It might be worth considering as an alternative.

Fell free to give us a call...it¹s a learning experience for us and it might
just be a help for you.

Sending this back channel as my link to the list has been a bit variable of
late.

Cheers,

Peter Newland

pntechnology, brisbane australia

e: [hidden email]
t: 617 3711 4057
m: 604 1069 5985

member: FileMaker Business Alliance

On 27/06/09 9:08 PM, "David McQueen" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> Comments interspersed below
>
>> G'day all...
>>
>> I'm tending for a project here in Brisbane (Australia) early this
>> coming week with a printing company, and they've got some specific
>> concerns that I'd like to be able to address or answer as best as
>> anyone possibly can. I have some answers of my own, but I'd love to
>> hear what opinions any of you have, and thus broaden my perspective.
>>
>> My competition for this project is a company offering a web based
>> solution, for around A$30-40K. I know little more than that, so I'm
>> afraid I can't elaborate much.
>
> One of the commentors described loss of connection problems. I have
> a potential client, chiropractor, who already has a web based
> solution to his office management. He is in Barrie here and the
> solution is served from Ottawa, about 200 miles away. He paid about
> $60,000 for this system and it is dropping data and becoming
> non-responsive on a regular basis. So loss of connection is not just
> a FileMaker problem. Don't get buffaloed by any comments that web is
> more robust "Just because".
>
>>
>> --------
>> The requirements are:
>>
>> Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
>> Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.
>>
>> They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
>> central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.
>
> These guys are going to put the heaviest load on the system. They
> will be the ones "processing data".
>
>>
>> They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole
>> traders working from home - also able to tap into most of the
>> central database system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs,
>> etc. and then liaise with the central factory to get the production
>> done and dispatched.
>
> I am guessing that the load from the distributors is not going to be
> that great. They will be entering data for the most part. They are
> not the ones doing company wide summary reports etc.
>
>>
>> They also want to have their customers log into the system for very
>> limited functionality.
>
> They are view only - basically transmitting screen and click info
> with some searching.
>
>>
>> I'm proposing we make what the customers need web compatible and
>> publish it with IWP or CWP. But allow the company's offices and
>> distributors access to full functionality with FMP clients over the
>> internet.
>>
>> I'm an experienced FM developer and have built many FM systems,
>> small and large, for many clients. However, I admit my experience
>> with accessing FM over the internet is somewhat limited, so that's
>> where my questions lie...
>> --------
>>
>>
>> --------
>> The three biggest questions are:
>>
>> 1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
>> internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
>> accessing it.
>> An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally over LAN, and
>> then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the internet from FMP
>> clients (ie. not from a web browser).
>>
>> * So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
>> * Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg.
>> 2Mbit SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or
>> will standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be
>> sufficient?
>> * Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/CWP
>> solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?
>
> I can't tell you specifics. I have about five solutions being
> accessed over WAN. One has been deployed in several organizations as
> FileMaker, Terminal Services and Citrix Server. In all cases, the
> biggest pipe out is the best.
>
>>
>> 2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is installing
>> FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good enough?
>
> A dedicated box. If you want to go cheap, a Mac mini. One of my
> clients is serving over 100 seats, multiple solutions, multiple
> locations with one dedicated Mac Mini. He swears it is the best bang
> for the buck. In contrast, they also have a web based payroll/quasi
> erp system where they have had to go to high power dedicated rack
> servers. They are still fighting with them after about a year and a
> half of deployment. This is a national or international payroll
> services provider.
>
>>
>>
>> 3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
>> what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
>> be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
>> developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively easy
>> to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also great
>> for end users building their own stuff, because it's ridiculously
>> user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are *they*
>> better off hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys to write
>> them a custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring any other
>> consultant to write them a custom web based solution?
>> --------
>
> A couple of things here. People hate dealing with computer system
> consultants because we all claim to have the greatest thing since
> sliced bread. In reality, part of the problem on what is "best" comes
> down to what do you have in your tool box. If what you have is a
> hammer, everything becomes a nail. If you have five consultants in a
> room, chances are each one is pushing a different tool.
>
> Go with "This is the tool I use. These are the benefits. Does this
> fit your operation?"
>
> Here are some of the benefits you have:
>
> 1. Rapid development
>
> 2. Flexibility over time
>
> 3. A mix of user experiences. The desk top users get a desk top
> application that functions as such. This includes you printing and
> reporting ability. Occasional users get a web experience but it is
> accessible with universally available tools ie a web browser.
>
> 4. A database engine that has had sustained profitability and is
> backed by a cash rich fortune 500 company - It will not orphan.
>
> 5. Most web based systems end up being subscription systems.
> Subscription - the gift that keeps on giving. Unfortunately, it is
> also the setup where the client does not know the overall traffic.
> Your system sounds owner based. Therefore the client retains control
> of the hardware and software to supply their load. The fee you
> indicate at the start, may just be a start. Your lifetime cost of
> ownership may be much much lower than theirs.
>>
>> Again, please don't think me an idiot. :) I am an experienced FM
>> developer and consultant, and already have some answers to the above
>> questions, but I really would like to hear what others think on
>> these topics, so anyone willing to chime in on any or all of the
>> above questions (no matter how simple or complex, obvious or not),
>> I will be very grateful for your opinions.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Thorp
>> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
>> Brisbane QLD Australia
>> [hidden email]
>> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
>> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>
>
> In general, everyone is willing to tell you what you cannot do. Stick
> to talking about what you can do and do well. Then the customer gets
> minimal surprises. If the parameters are such that you cannot do a
> good job - walk away.
>
> Watch the claims for other system types. All have their strengths
> and weaknesses. But from what I have seen, and lost bids and hence
> money to, many of them in the end were guys in glass houses throwing
> rocks. And they were not small guys and they were not competing on
> price.
>
> Just my $.02 CDN on a Saturday morning. Hope it helps.
>
> Dave McQueen

David Thorp-2

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

Hi again all,

Thanks to all of you muchly for your thoughts and suggestions (and I
welcome any more if there are any others out there just tuning in) ;)

I'm concluding the following so far:

1. While I'm hearing many of you express the benefits of a TS/Citrix
solution, I'm afraid this client just doesn't want that, and there are
good reasons specific to them that justify it (that I won't bore you
all with here). But... FileMaker over WAN for anything other than
occasional use is unlikely to provide satisfactory performance over a
standard ADSL2+ connection, and there is also the issue of reliability
- FMP losing the connection. So with that feedback, I've come up with
some other thoughts that might sway back in FileMaker's favour:

a. I've enquired with some local ISP's about some higher end internet
connections, and my client could get a Mid Band Ethernet or Fibre
connection say 6Mbps both ways with guaranteed service levels (99.5%
up time or thereabouts) for just over A$1000 a month. SHDSL (with
similar guarantees) at 2Mbps both ways is just over A$500 a month.
While that's expensive by most counts, it's not outrageous. And as
suggested by David McQueen, a similarly reliable internet connection
may well be required for the competing solution anyway. Any other
thoughts on that anyone?

b. As suggested by Steve Cassidy, designing for speed is important. I
have long developed using separate interface and data files, where my
data file has NOTHING other than tables fields and minimal
relationships. No scripts, or anything else in it. Now, putting
aside deployment issues, what if the interface file is on every remote
offices' machines, and the data file is the only thing being served
from the server to the WAN? Surely that will make a huge difference
to performance? Anyone have any thoughts on or experience with that
approach?

2. Dedicated FM server box? Seems like that's pretty unanimous:
YES. But it doesn't have to be anything fancy. Even a mac mini will
do. Ok, that's good to know. This client can probably afford better
than that - perhaps a low level iMac (at least proper 3.5" SATA
performance is available then). Anyway, that question is well and
truly nailed I think.

3. All of your feedback on the question of why is FM better is
appreciated and noted. I'll compile those thoughts with my own for a
definitive and now very persuasive answer for the client. :) Thanks
all for that!

Thanks again so far everyone. Any further thoughts particularly on 1
(a and b) above will still be very much appreciated.

--
David Thorp
All About Abundance Pty Ltd
Brisbane QLD Australia
[hidden email]
ph: +61-4-0558-8065
fx: +61-2-9475-1444

All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
medium businesses.

On 27/06/2009, at 12:15 PM, David Thorp wrote:

Agi Riley

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

David,

If your client can afford to spend that much for Internet, he can
afford a proper server. The most important aspects of a server are
raided hard drive and redundancy for maximum uptime. The Mini is a
great choice for an internal server, but when you start serving
clients, the Mac Mini is just not sufficient.

Have you looked into FM hosting?

Not exactly sure what your goal here is but I would quite possibly go
with custom web publishing.

These are my two cents on a Subday afternoon. :-)

Agnes Riley
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 28, 2009, at 9:45 AM, David Thorp <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Hi again all,
>
> Thanks to all of you muchly for your thoughts and suggestions (and I
> welcome any more if there are any others out there just tuning in) ;)
>
> I'm concluding the following so far:
>
>
> 1. While I'm hearing many of you express the benefits of a TS/Citrix
> solution, I'm afraid this client just doesn't want that, and there
> are good reasons specific to them that justify it (that I won't bore
> you all with here). But... FileMaker over WAN for anything other
> than occasional use is unlikely to provide satisfactory performance
> over a standard ADSL2+ connection, and there is also the issue of
> reliability - FMP losing the connection. So with that feedback,
> I've come up with some other thoughts that might sway back in
> FileMaker's favour:
>
> a. I've enquired with some local ISP's about some higher end
> internet connections, and my client could get a Mid Band Ethernet or
> Fibre connection say 6Mbps both ways with guaranteed service levels
> (99.5% up time or thereabouts) for just over A$1000 a month. SHDSL
> (with similar guarantees) at 2Mbps both ways is just over A$500 a
> month. While that's expensive by most counts, it's not outrageous.
> And as suggested by David McQueen, a similarly reliable internet
> connection may well be required for the competing solution anyway.
> Any other thoughts on that anyone?
>
> b. As suggested by Steve Cassidy, designing for speed is important.
> I have long developed using separate interface and data files, where
> my data file has NOTHING other than tables fields and minimal
> relationships. No scripts, or anything else in it. Now, putting
> aside deployment issues, what if the interface file is on every
> remote offices' machines, and the data file is the only thing being
> served from the server to the WAN? Surely that will make a huge
> difference to performance? Anyone have any thoughts on or
> experience with that approach?
>
>
>
> 2. Dedicated FM server box? Seems like that's pretty unanimous:
> YES. But it doesn't have to be anything fancy. Even a mac mini
> will do. Ok, that's good to know. This client can probably afford
> better than that - perhaps a low level iMac (at least proper 3.5"
> SATA performance is available then). Anyway, that question is well
> and truly nailed I think.
>
>
>
> 3. All of your feedback on the question of why is FM better is
> appreciated and noted. I'll compile those thoughts with my own for
> a definitive and now very persuasive answer for the client. :)
> Thanks all for that!
>
>
>
> Thanks again so far everyone. Any further thoughts particularly on
> 1 (a and b) above will still be very much appreciated.
>
>
> --
> David Thorp
> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
> Brisbane QLD Australia
> [hidden email]
> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>
> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
> medium businesses.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27/06/2009, at 12:15 PM, David Thorp wrote:
>
>> G'day all...
>>
>> I'm tending for a project here in Brisbane (Australia) early this
>> coming week with a printing company, and they've got some specific
>> concerns that I'd like to be able to address or answer as best as
>> anyone possibly can. I have some answers of my own, but I'd love
>> to hear what opinions any of you have, and thus broaden my
>> perspective.
>>
>> My competition for this project is a company offering a web based
>> solution, for around A$30-40K. I know little more than that, so
>> I'm afraid I can't elaborate much.
>>
>>
>> --------
>> The requirements are:
>>
>> Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
>> Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.
>>
>> They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
>> central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.
>>
>> They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole
>> traders working from home - also able to tap into most of the
>> central database system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs,
>> etc. and then liaise with the central factory to get the production
>> done and dispatched.
>>
>> They also want to have their customers log into the system for very
>> limited functionality.
>>
>> I'm proposing we make what the customers need web compatible and
>> publish it with IWP or CWP. But allow the company's offices and
>> distributors access to full functionality with FMP clients over the
>> internet.
>>
>> I'm an experienced FM developer and have built many FM systems,
>> small and large, for many clients. However, I admit my experience
>> with accessing FM over the internet is somewhat limited, so that's
>> where my questions lie...
>> --------
>>
>>
>> --------
>> The three biggest questions are:
>>
>> 1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
>> internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
>> accessing it. An office of maybe 10 people accessing it internally
>> over LAN, and then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over the
>> internet from FMP clients (ie. not from a web browser).
>>
>> • So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
>> • Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg. 2
>> Mbit SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or w
>> ill standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be suffi
>> cient?
>> • Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/CW
>> P solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?
>>
>>
>> 2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is
>> installing FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good
>> enough?
>>
>>
>> 3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
>> what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
>> be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
>> developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively
>> easy to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's also
>> great for end users building their own stuff, because it's
>> ridiculously user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why are
>> *they* better off hiring a consultant like me or many of you guys
>> to write them a custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring any
>> other consultant to write them a custom web based solution?
>> --------
>>
>>
>> Again, please don't think me an idiot. :) I am an experienced FM
>> developer and consultant, and already have some answers to the
>> above questions, but I really would like to hear what others think
>> on these topics, so anyone willing to chime in on any or all of the
>> above questions (no matter how simple or complex, obvious or not),
>> I will be very grateful for your opinions.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Thorp
>> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
>> Brisbane QLD Australia
>> [hidden email]
>> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
>> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>>
>> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
>> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
>> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
>> medium businesses.
>>
>>
>>
>> ****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
>> We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
>> dramatically expand our business.
>>
>> It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
>> very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.
>>
>> Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
>> exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
>> are welcome.
>>
>> If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
>> please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
>> above.
>> ***********************************************************
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/
>
>

bfr00

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

Agi Riley

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

I'm sorry, I didn't think it was my job to compare them.

I was just offering my two cents, as I stated.

Agnes B. Riley
[hidden email]

Member, FileMaker Business Alliance
Member, FileMaker Technical Network

FileMaker 10 on Mac OS X 10.5.7

"Imagination is more important than knowledge..."
/Albert Einstein/

On Jun 28, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

>> David,
>>
>> If your client can afford to spend that much for Internet, he can
>> afford a proper server. The most important aspects of a server are
>> raided hard drive and redundancy for maximum uptime. The Mini is a
>> great choice for an internal server, but when you start serving
>> clients, the Mac Mini is just not sufficient.
>>
>> Have you looked into FM hosting?
>
> You mention three choices but do not accurately compare them.
>
> Mini
> "Proper server"
> Remote hosting
>
> The Mini and "proper server" will be almost indistinguishable in
> performance, compared to remote hosting, which will trail far behind.
>
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/
>
>

Colin MacGregor

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Agi Riley

There is another hosting option - installing the host in an internet
data centre with very fast internet access.

That would correct the imbalance in connection speed between internal
and external users. Everyone would connect via slow to the internet,
then fast to the box. I think that might be more reliable than having
10 users connect very fast via the LAN, whilst 50 connect via a slow-
fast-slow path onto and off the internet. The going rate for hosting a
Mac mini seems to be about $30 a month, so it's cheap.

Regarding your comment about using a proper SATA 300 mbps 3.5" disk,
of course Firewire is faster at 800 mbps. It's a bit academic because
the fastest hard disks can't saturate either bus. If you attach a
fast, large cache 3.5" drive to a Mac mini via Firewire 800 and run
the OS, FileMaker and database on it, you'll have a seriously quick
little system. Having a second HD in the box for Time Machine is a
nice bonus, even if it isn't a speed demon.

Kind regards,

Colin

+++

Colin MacGregor

Resolute Systems (UK) Limited
9 Marlow Road
High Wycombe
Bucks
HP11 1TA
UK

www.resolutesystems.co.uk

tel: 01494 520088
cell: 07974 152733
Skype: resysuk

registered in England and Wales
company registration number 3826934
VAT registration number 776 3622 04

FileMaker Business Alliance member
FileMaker TechNet member

On 28 Jun 2009, at 17:29, Agi Riley wrote:

> David,
>
> If your client can afford to spend that much for Internet, he can
> afford a proper server. The most important aspects of a server are
> raided hard drive and redundancy for maximum uptime. The Mini is a
> great choice for an internal server, but when you start serving
> clients, the Mac Mini is just not sufficient.
>
> Have you looked into FM hosting?
>
> Not exactly sure what your goal here is but I would quite possibly
> go with custom web publishing.
>
> These are my two cents on a Subday afternoon. :-)
>
> Agnes Riley
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 28, 2009, at 9:45 AM, David Thorp <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
>> Hi again all,
>>
>> Thanks to all of you muchly for your thoughts and suggestions (and
>> I welcome any more if there are any others out there just tuning
>> in) ;)
>>
>> I'm concluding the following so far:
>>
>>
>> 1. While I'm hearing many of you express the benefits of a TS/
>> Citrix solution, I'm afraid this client just doesn't want that, and
>> there are good reasons specific to them that justify it (that I
>> won't bore you all with here). But... FileMaker over WAN for
>> anything other than occasional use is unlikely to provide
>> satisfactory performance over a standard ADSL2+ connection, and
>> there is also the issue of reliability - FMP losing the
>> connection. So with that feedback, I've come up with some other
>> thoughts that might sway back in FileMaker's favour:
>>
>> a. I've enquired with some local ISP's about some higher end
>> internet connections, and my client could get a Mid Band Ethernet
>> or Fibre connection say 6Mbps both ways with guaranteed service
>> levels (99.5% up time or thereabouts) for just over A$1000 a
>> month. SHDSL (with similar guarantees) at 2Mbps both ways is just
>> over A$500 a month. While that's expensive by most counts, it's not
>> outrageous. And as suggested by David McQueen, a similarly
>> reliable internet connection may well be required for the competing
>> solution anyway. Any other thoughts on that anyone?
>>
>> b. As suggested by Steve Cassidy, designing for speed is
>> important. I have long developed using separate interface and data
>> files, where my data file has NOTHING other than tables fields and
>> minimal relationships. No scripts, or anything else in it. Now,
>> putting aside deployment issues, what if the interface file is on
>> every remote offices' machines, and the data file is the only thing
>> being served from the server to the WAN? Surely that will make a
>> huge difference to performance? Anyone have any thoughts on or
>> experience with that approach?
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. Dedicated FM server box? Seems like that's pretty unanimous:
>> YES. But it doesn't have to be anything fancy. Even a mac mini
>> will do. Ok, that's good to know. This client can probably afford
>> better than that - perhaps a low level iMac (at least proper 3.5"
>> SATA performance is available then). Anyway, that question is well
>> and truly nailed I think.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. All of your feedback on the question of why is FM better is
>> appreciated and noted. I'll compile those thoughts with my own for
>> a definitive and now very persuasive answer for the client. :)
>> Thanks all for that!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again so far everyone. Any further thoughts particularly on
>> 1 (a and b) above will still be very much appreciated.
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Thorp
>> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
>> Brisbane QLD Australia
>> [hidden email]
>> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
>> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>>
>> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
>> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
>> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
>> medium businesses.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27/06/2009, at 12:15 PM, David Thorp wrote:
>>
>>> G'day all...
>>>
>>> I'm tending for a project here in Brisbane (Australia) early this
>>> coming week with a printing company, and they've got some specific
>>> concerns that I'd like to be able to address or answer as best as
>>> anyone possibly can. I have some answers of my own, but I'd love
>>> to hear what opinions any of you have, and thus broaden my
>>> perspective.
>>>
>>> My competition for this project is a company offering a web based
>>> solution, for around A$30-40K. I know little more than that, so
>>> I'm afraid I can't elaborate much.
>>>
>>>
>>> --------
>>> The requirements are:
>>>
>>> Printing company, normal sort of thing... Quotes, Jobs/Projects,
>>> Invoices, Clients, etc. All Windows XP and Vista at the moment.
>>>
>>> They currently have two offices, all needing full access to the
>>> central database system. This will grow to more offices over time.
>>>
>>> They also want to have distributors - mostly independent sole
>>> traders working from home - also able to tap into most of the
>>> central database system, generate quotes, convert them into jobs,
>>> etc. and then liaise with the central factory to get the
>>> production done and dispatched.
>>>
>>> They also want to have their customers log into the system for
>>> very limited functionality.
>>>
>>> I'm proposing we make what the customers need web compatible and
>>> publish it with IWP or CWP. But allow the company's offices and
>>> distributors access to full functionality with FMP clients over
>>> the internet.
>>>
>>> I'm an experienced FM developer and have built many FM systems,
>>> small and large, for many clients. However, I admit my experience
>>> with accessing FM over the internet is somewhat limited, so that's
>>> where my questions lie...
>>> --------
>>>
>>>
>>> --------
>>> The three biggest questions are:
>>>
>>> 1. Say we have a decent server running FM Server 10. ADSL2+
>>> internet connection at the server end, and also at each client
>>> accessing it. An office of maybe 10 people accessing it
>>> internally over LAN, and then maybe 40-50 people accessing it over
>>> the internet from FMP clients (ie. not from a web browser).
>>>
>>> • So yeah, how feasible is this really in the real world?
>>> • Is a faster or more reliable internet connection required (eg.
>>> 2Mbit SHDSL? more?) at either or both ends of each connection, or
>>> will standard ADSL2+ (maybe 6-10Mbit down and 600 Kbit up) be
>>> sufficient?
>>> • Should I really be pursuing this? Or should I consider an IWP/
>>> CWP solution instead (not something I want to do if I can help it)?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. Should I need a dedicated box for the FM server? Or is
>>> installing FMS on their (pretty grunty) file server machine good
>>> enough?
>>>
>>>
>>> 3. A more general question: We all love FM here. But ultimately,
>>> what's so great about it, for a client like this one? Why will it
>>> be better *for them* than a web based solution? It's great for us
>>> developers because it's powerful, very flexible, and relatively
>>> easy to develop rapidly in - especially small stuff - and it's
>>> also great for end users building their own stuff, because it's
>>> ridiculously user friendly. But for this company's needs? Why
>>> are *they* better off hiring a consultant like me or many of you
>>> guys to write them a custom FM based solution as opposed to hiring
>>> any other consultant to write them a custom web based solution?
>>> --------
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, please don't think me an idiot. :) I am an experienced FM
>>> developer and consultant, and already have some answers to the
>>> above questions, but I really would like to hear what others think
>>> on these topics, so anyone willing to chime in on any or all of
>>> the above questions (no matter how simple or complex, obvious or
>>> not), I will be very grateful for your opinions.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Thorp
>>> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
>>> Brisbane QLD Australia
>>> [hidden email]
>>> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
>>> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>>>
>>> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
>>> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
>>> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
>>> medium businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
>>> We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
>>> dramatically expand our business.
>>>
>>> It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
>>> very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.
>>>
>>> Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
>>> exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
>>> are welcome.
>>>
>>> If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
>>> please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
>>> above.
>>> ***********************************************************
>>
>> --
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>>
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Peter Newland-2

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

David,

A couple more thoughts....

On 28/06/09 11:45 PM, "David Thorp" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> a. I've enquired with some local ISP's about some higher end internet
> connections, and my client could get a Mid Band Ethernet or Fibre
> connection say 6Mbps both ways with guaranteed service levels (99.5%
> up time or thereabouts) for just over A$1000 a month. SHDSL (with
> similar guarantees) at 2Mbps both ways is just over A$500 a month.
> While that's expensive by most counts, it's not outrageous. And as
> suggested by David McQueen, a similarly reliable internet connection
> may well be required for the competing solution anyway. Any other
> thoughts on that anyone?

ouch! .... my clients certainly wouldn't sit still for that...
tried something similar between Canberra and Ballarat (Telstra)
but it wasn't overly successful, faster than ISP hosted but still
quite slow
>
> b. As suggested by Steve Cassidy, designing for speed is important. I
> have long developed using separate interface and data files, where my
> data file has NOTHING other than tables fields and minimal
> relationships. No scripts, or anything else in it.

we've been doing this since FMp ver 6 and endorse it heavily!

> Now, putting
> aside deployment issues, what if the interface file is on every remote
> offices' machines, and the data file is the only thing being served
> from the server to the WAN? Surely that will make a huge difference
> to performance? Anyone have any thoughts on or experience with that
> approach?
>
tried this but you still have data travelling across the WAN -
clients did not find it acceptable and you still have the problem of
keeping the connection open although this is less of a problem now.
This also means that all machines need to have any interface
file upgrades.
>
> 2. Dedicated FM server box? Seems like that's pretty unanimous:
> YES. But it doesn't have to be anything fancy. Even a mac mini will
> do.
we have been using a macMini for internal FMp server duties
ever since they were available...and have used them in over
a dozen client sites with excellent results....one client
'demanded' an Xserve...supplied by someone else...but has
since gone back to the macMini

Cheers,

Peter Newland

pntechnology, brisbane australia

e: [hidden email]
t: 617 3711 4057
m: 604 1069 5985

member: FileMaker Business Alliance

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David Thorp-2

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Colin MacGregor

Hi Colin,

> Regarding your comment about using a proper SATA 300 mbps 3.5" disk,
> of course Firewire is faster at 800 mbps. It's a bit academic
> because the fastest hard disks can't saturate either bus. If you
> attach a fast, large cache 3.5" drive to a Mac mini via Firewire 800
> and run the OS, FileMaker and database on it, you'll have a
> seriously quick little system. Having a second HD in the box for
> Time Machine is a nice bonus, even if it isn't a speed demon.

Am I missing something? I thought SATA I = 1.5Gbps and SATA II =
3Gbps (ie. not 300Mbps). If I understand correctly this is 2x-4x as
fast as FW800...?

Cheers...
David.

On 29/06/2009, at 8:18 AM, Colin MacGregor wrote:

> There is another hosting option - installing the host in an internet
> data centre with very fast internet access.
>
> That would correct the imbalance in connection speed between
> internal and external users. Everyone would connect via slow to the
> internet, then fast to the box. I think that might be more reliable
> than having 10 users connect very fast via the LAN, whilst 50
> connect via a slow-fast-slow path onto and off the internet. The
> going rate for hosting a Mac mini seems to be about $30 a month, so
> it's cheap.
>
> Regarding your comment about using a proper SATA 300 mbps 3.5" disk,
> of course Firewire is faster at 800 mbps. It's a bit academic
> because the fastest hard disks can't saturate either bus. If you
> attach a fast, large cache 3.5" drive to a Mac mini via Firewire 800
> and run the OS, FileMaker and database on it, you'll have a
> seriously quick little system. Having a second HD in the box for
> Time Machine is a nice bonus, even if it isn't a speed demon.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Colin
>
> +++
>
> Colin MacGregor

David Thorp-2

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Colin MacGregor

Hi again all...

Colin raises another option I hadn't considered and one that looks
potentially very attractive:

> There is another hosting option - installing the host in an internet
> data centre with very fast internet access.

...which also raises the idea of third party FM hosting as well or
instead.

Do any of you Aussie developers out there know of any good FM hosting
companies, and/or internet data centres (where my client could install
their own Mini or iMac) in Australia (preferably Brisbane, but that's
probably not essential)?

Thanks again!

--
David Thorp
All About Abundance Pty Ltd
Brisbane QLD Australia
[hidden email]
ph: +61-4-0558-8065
fx: +61-2-9475-1444

All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
medium businesses.

****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
dramatically expand our business.

It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.

Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
are welcome.

If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
above.
***********************************************************

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coolcat

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

Hi David,

Another idea to throw into the mix - is using fmstudio to create fm
website pretty easily - served from in house fm server...

http://fmwebschool.com/fmstudio.php

I'm a big fan of this - because I was already using dreamweaver (with
cold fusion / ms sequel server) so it was an easy transition for me....

I built web access for a customer who already had a robust fm solution
operating internally w/ about 10 fm clients - and now his customers
can access their data from his website (pages talk directly with his
in office FM SERVER)

one thing that REALLY helped speed things up - was when he moved to a
4 core mac pro for the fm server!

Thanks,
[hidden email]

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Colin MacGregor

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

Sorry - got some of that the wrong way round. However, the essence of
it is true. A Mac mini running FM databases from a fast disk on
Firewire is really fast.

Kind regards,

Colin

+++

Colin MacGregor

Resolute Systems (UK) Limited
9 Marlow Road
High Wycombe
Bucks
HP11 1TA
UK

www.resolutesystems.co.uk

tel: 01494 520088
cell: 07974 152733
Skype: resysuk

registered in England and Wales
company registration number 3826934
VAT registration number 776 3622 04

FileMaker Business Alliance member
FileMaker TechNet member

On 29 Jun 2009, at 02:00, David Thorp wrote:

> Hi Colin,
>
>> Regarding your comment about using a proper SATA 300 mbps 3.5"
>> disk, of course Firewire is faster at 800 mbps. It's a bit academic
>> because the fastest hard disks can't saturate either bus. If you
>> attach a fast, large cache 3.5" drive to a Mac mini via Firewire
>> 800 and run the OS, FileMaker and database on it, you'll have a
>> seriously quick little system. Having a second HD in the box for
>> Time Machine is a nice bonus, even if it isn't a speed demon.
>
>
> Am I missing something? I thought SATA I = 1.5Gbps and SATA II =
> 3Gbps (ie. not 300Mbps). If I understand correctly this is 2x-4x as
> fast as FW800...?
>
> Cheers...
> David.
>
>
> On 29/06/2009, at 8:18 AM, Colin MacGregor wrote:
>
>> There is another hosting option - installing the host in an
>> internet data centre with very fast internet access.
>>
>> That would correct the imbalance in connection speed between
>> internal and external users. Everyone would connect via slow to the
>> internet, then fast to the box. I think that might be more reliable
>> than having 10 users connect very fast via the LAN, whilst 50
>> connect via a slow-fast-slow path onto and off the internet. The
>> going rate for hosting a Mac mini seems to be about $30 a month, so
>> it's cheap.
>>
>> Regarding your comment about using a proper SATA 300 mbps 3.5"
>> disk, of course Firewire is faster at 800 mbps. It's a bit academic
>> because the fastest hard disks can't saturate either bus. If you
>> attach a fast, large cache 3.5" drive to a Mac mini via Firewire
>> 800 and run the OS, FileMaker and database on it, you'll have a
>> seriously quick little system. Having a second HD in the box for
>> Time Machine is a nice bonus, even if it isn't a speed demon.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Colin
>>
>> +++
>>
>> Colin MacGregor
>
> --
> David Thorp
> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
> Brisbane QLD Australia
> [hidden email]
> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>
> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
> medium businesses.
>
>
>
> ****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
> We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
> dramatically expand our business.
>
> It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
> very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.
>
> Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
> exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
> are welcome.
>
> If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
> please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
> above.
> ***********************************************************
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/
>
>

David McQueen

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

That option works.

I have a client in Toronto with 7 locations hosted by a dedicated FM
data centre in the states. Everyone is at the same speed - slower.
Big plus for them - no additional hardware or IT support, no need to
purchase server. The cost per month is very reasonable.

I have another client co-located their own machine at an ISP. Did
not work so well. They finally took it out of there and set up their
own. The were losing connection.

Dave

--
...................
David A. McQueen
LICHEN Software
Barrie, ON, CANADA
http://www.lichen-software.com
(705)720-9022

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Agi Riley

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Colin MacGregor

When I said 'proper' server, I wasn't talking about speed, but rather
redundancy. We all know FireWire 800 is blazingly fast. But speed is
not te only thing that matters in a server environment.

If you do decide to take the Mac Mini route, at least get a FireWire
RAID with 4-5 drives so you can make it RAID 5. The reason behind that
is if one drive fails you just simply replace it with another one (in
mist cases while your server is running). However, just keep in mind
that if the hard drive fails in the Mini, your application will be
down until you get a new hard drive and reinstall your OS and
FileMaker Server.

On another note, while I never had a problem with SCSI conections,
FireWie has failed me several times, whether it was the cable, the
port or the device

David, if you need more detailed advice, I'd be certainly happy to
help off channel. I have over 5 years or system administration
experience.

Agnes Riley
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:08 AM, Colin MacGregor <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry - got some of that the wrong way round. However, the essence
> of it is true. A Mac mini running FM databases from a fast disk on
> Firewire is really fast.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Colin
>
> +++
>
> Colin MacGregor
>
> Resolute Systems (UK) Limited
> 9 Marlow Road
> High Wycombe
> Bucks
> HP11 1TA
> UK
>
> www.resolutesystems.co.uk
>
> tel: 01494 520088
> cell: 07974 152733
> Skype: resysuk
>
> registered in England and Wales
> company registration number 3826934
> VAT registration number 776 3622 04
>
> FileMaker Business Alliance member
> FileMaker TechNet member
>
>
>
>
> On 29 Jun 2009, at 02:00, David Thorp wrote:
>
>> Hi Colin,
>>
>>> Regarding your comment about using a proper SATA 300 mbps 3.5"
>>> disk, of course Firewire is faster at 800 mbps. It's a bit
>>> academic because the fastest hard disks can't saturate either bus.
>>> If you attach a fast, large cache 3.5" drive to a Mac mini via
>>> Firewire 800 and run the OS, FileMaker and database on it, you'll
>>> have a seriously quick little system. Having a second HD in the
>>> box for Time Machine is a nice bonus, even if it isn't a speed
>>> demon.
>>
>>
>> Am I missing something? I thought SATA I = 1.5Gbps and SATA II =
>> 3Gbps (ie. not 300Mbps). If I understand correctly this is 2x-4x
>> as fast as FW800...?
>>
>> Cheers...
>> David.
>>
>>
>> On 29/06/2009, at 8:18 AM, Colin MacGregor wrote:
>>
>>> There is another hosting option - installing the host in an
>>> internet data centre with very fast internet access.
>>>
>>> That would correct the imbalance in connection speed between
>>> internal and external users. Everyone would connect via slow to
>>> the internet, then fast to the box. I think that might be more
>>> reliable than having 10 users connect very fast via the LAN,
>>> whilst 50 connect via a slow-fast-slow path onto and off the
>>> internet. The going rate for hosting a Mac mini seems to be about
>>> $30 a month, so it's cheap.
>>>
>>> Regarding your comment about using a proper SATA 300 mbps 3.5"
>>> disk, of course Firewire is faster at 800 mbps. It's a bit
>>> academic because the fastest hard disks can't saturate either bus.
>>> If you attach a fast, large cache 3.5" drive to a Mac mini via
>>> Firewire 800 and run the OS, FileMaker and database on it, you'll
>>> have a seriously quick little system. Having a second HD in the
>>> box for Time Machine is a nice bonus, even if it isn't a speed
>>> demon.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Colin
>>>
>>> +++
>>>
>>> Colin MacGregor
>>
>> --
>> David Thorp
>> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
>> Brisbane QLD Australia
>> [hidden email]
>> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
>> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>>
>> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
>> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
>> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
>> medium businesses.
>>
>>
>>
>> ****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
>> We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
>> dramatically expand our business.
>>
>> It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
>> very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.
>>
>> Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
>> exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
>> are welcome.
>>
>> If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
>> please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
>> above.
>> ***********************************************************
>>
>>
>> --
>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/Browse/
>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/
>>
>>
>
>
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Agi Riley

Re: FM over the internet...

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Thorp-2

David,

Check this host out:

http://www.thedroolingdog.com/index.lasso?page=service

The Proof Group,is using them. They have a lot of different options.
This is not an endorsement.

Best,
Agi

Agnes B. Riley
[hidden email]

Member, FileMaker Business Alliance
Member, FileMaker Technical Network

FileMaker 10 on Mac OS X 10.5.7

"Imagination is more important than knowledge..."
/Albert Einstein/

On Jun 28, 2009, at 9:04 PM, David Thorp wrote:

> Hi again all...
>
> Colin raises another option I hadn't considered and one that looks
> potentially very attractive:
>
>> There is another hosting option - installing the host in an
>> internet data centre with very fast internet access.
>
>
> ...which also raises the idea of third party FM hosting as well or
> instead.
>
> Do any of you Aussie developers out there know of any good FM
> hosting companies, and/or internet data centres (where my client
> could install their own Mini or iMac) in Australia (preferably
> Brisbane, but that's probably not essential)?
>
> Thanks again!
>
> --
> David Thorp
> All About Abundance Pty Ltd
> Brisbane QLD Australia
> [hidden email]
> ph: +61-4-0558-8065
> fx: +61-2-9475-1444
>
> All About Abundance is a leading custom software solutions
> provider, based in Brisbane, Australia. We have a unique
> approach that revolutionises productivity for small to
> medium businesses.
>
>
>
> ****** ALL ABOUT ABUNDANCE IS HIRING (MARKETING) ******
> We are looking for a go-getter marketing person to help
> dramatically expand our business.
>
> It is a challenging role but the right person will make a
> very healthy, performance-based six-figure income.
>
> Many of our staff work remotely, and this role need be no
> exception. Applicants from all English speaking countries
> are welcome.
>
> If you think this might be you, or if you know of someone,
> please contact me OFF-LIST at the address in my signature
> above.
> ***********************************************************
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/FileMaker/
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>

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