GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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Roger Stockton

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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Andre' Blanchard wrote:

> The ampmeter will tell you that the voltage drop is because
> you have a cell or three going soft someplace in the pack
> because it is dropping more then it used to at some given
> current.  In which case you can find the bad battery and
> replace it before it does more damage to the rest of the pack.

This is true, but knowing the exact current isn't essential to diagnosing such a problem, that's all I'm saying.  The ammeter is definitely beneficial, but if I had to choose just one gauge for my EV a voltmeter wins hands down.

For me to know that I've got some cells going soft, I have to have a voltmeter; an ammeter alone isn't telling me anything.  If I've got a voltmeter, then I can see if the voltage is dropping more than it used to in such and such a gear, at such and such speed, at such and such point in my regular commute; I don't need to know exactly how many amps I'm pulling under those conditions to know that something has changed.  Ultimately, it's the voltmeter I'm relying on, not the ammeter.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Andre' Blanchard-2

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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At 04:25 PM 2/5/2008, you wrote:

>This is true, but knowing the exact current isn't essential to diagnosing
>such a problem, that's all I'm saying.  The ammeter is definitely
>beneficial, but if I had to choose just one gauge for my EV a voltmeter
>wins hands down.
>
>For me to know that I've got some cells going soft, I have to have a
>voltmeter; an ammeter alone isn't telling me anything.  If I've got a
>voltmeter, then I can see if the voltage is dropping more than it used to
>in such and such a gear, at such and such speed, at such and such point in
>my regular commute; I don't need to know exactly how many amps I'm pulling
>under those conditions to know that something has changed.  Ultimately,
>it's the voltmeter I'm relying on, not the ammeter.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Roger.

Yes if you are limited to just one meter a volt meter would be it because
you can get a fair estimate of the amps by knowing what gear you are in,
how far you have the peddle pushed, and how much push you are feeling.

If all you have is an amp meter and when you push the peddle a given amount
you should get a certain reading based on gear, speed, etc., if it is low
you do not need to know the voltage to know that something is wrong.
You can get the same, things are good or bad info from a volt or an amp
meter, having both just gives you more precise info to work with.

Ultimately you do not need anything.  Push the peddle and if nothing
happens, then something is wrong.  Keep pushing the peddle and unless it is
completely dead your nose will lead you to the problem. :)

__________
Andre' B.  Clear Lake, Wi.


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Roger Stockton

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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Josh Creel wrote:

> Don't have a controller yet,  I'm thinking of taking a chance
> on the new Kelly,  but may go with the Curtis.  Not sure yet,
>  still trying to make up my mind.  Like to have anyone's
> insight on this as well,  although I've read a lot of
> opinions on this list already.  :-)

Did you mention what pack voltage you are planning on?

If 72V or below, the AllTrax is a proven made-in-the-USA performer with a fine pedigree (Alltrax used to make the respected DCP line of on-road controllers).

Over 144V the only choice is the Zilla Z1k or Z2K.

Between 72 and 144V, you have a choice of Curtis, Kelly, or Zilla.  You can't go wrong with the Zilla, though it is a little pricier than the others, especially if you're planning to stay in the 72-84 or 96V range.

The Kelly's don't yet have enough of a track record for me to try one or feel comfortable recommending one, unfortunately; have to wait until reports start coming in from those brave early adopters! ;^>

So far all I've seen is the one report from the fellow with the 72V Eagle Talon NEV, and his report of underwhelming power might indicate that the Kelly isn't able to deliver all the current it is claimed to (or perhaps isn't able to sustain it for very long).

I'd lean toward a Curtis if I was planning to stay below 120V (i.e. 1221 territory) and an AllTrax for 72V or less.  Once you're into Curtis 1231 territory, it is difficult not to use a Zilla Z1k instead for what little premium is involved.

The Curtis seems to be a decent no-frills workhorse that will hold up OK if you take a few basic steps to keep it dry; its biggest fault is the low-speed whine of the C models.  The Kelly might be just as good, but at this point I don't think there are enough of them on the road to have an idea of how close to spec they perform, how reliable they are, or how painful it is to get warranty honoured when they do fail.

Cheers,

Roger.

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daelectric

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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I am not saying that Kelly controllers are good or bad I just know the guy
with that conversion and there other factors at this time that could be
impacting his speed.
For one the brushes are not worn in yet.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 5:36 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GAUGES FOR MY EV?

Josh Creel wrote:

> Don't have a controller yet,  I'm thinking of taking a chance
> on the new Kelly,  but may go with the Curtis.  Not sure yet,
>  still trying to make up my mind.  Like to have anyone's
> insight on this as well,  although I've read a lot of
> opinions on this list already.  :-)

Did you mention what pack voltage you are planning on?

If 72V or below, the AllTrax is a proven made-in-the-USA performer with a
fine pedigree (Alltrax used to make the respected DCP line of on-road
controllers).

Over 144V the only choice is the Zilla Z1k or Z2K.

Between 72 and 144V, you have a choice of Curtis, Kelly, or Zilla.  You
can't go wrong with the Zilla, though it is a little pricier than the
others, especially if you're planning to stay in the 72-84 or 96V range.

The Kelly's don't yet have enough of a track record for me to try one or
feel comfortable recommending one, unfortunately; have to wait until reports
start coming in from those brave early adopters! ;^>

So far all I've seen is the one report from the fellow with the 72V Eagle
Talon NEV, and his report of underwhelming power might indicate that the
Kelly isn't able to deliver all the current it is claimed to (or perhaps
isn't able to sustain it for very long).

I'd lean toward a Curtis if I was planning to stay below 120V (i.e. 1221
territory) and an AllTrax for 72V or less.  Once you're into Curtis 1231
territory, it is difficult not to use a Zilla Z1k instead for what little
premium is involved.

The Curtis seems to be a decent no-frills workhorse that will hold up OK if
you take a few basic steps to keep it dry; its biggest fault is the
low-speed whine of the C models.  The Kelly might be just as good, but at
this point I don't think there are enough of them on the road to have an
idea of how close to spec they perform, how reliable they are, or how
painful it is to get warranty honoured when they do fail.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Adrian DeLeon

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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>> You can get by without an ammeter as you say, only knowing
>> when the pack reaches dead at 1.75v/cell. But it will be
>> difficult to judge how much farther you can go.
> I'm not sure I understand how an ammeter would help in this regard

Easy... My controller lights an LED when it sees my battery pack hit  
1.75V/cell. When accelerating from a stop I may see this LED flash. As the  
%SOC drops, the LED will flash more often and at lower battery amps.

For a quick battery charge indication I press the accelerator just hard  
enough to light this LED and glance at the battery amps. >300A? 250A? No  
problem. If the LED lights at 200A or less I know it'll be a slow trip  
home :)

In my case, the LED is a remote indication of battery voltage. You can do  
the same thing by watching the battery voltage gauge while pressing the  
accelerator. The LED just lets me keep both eyes on the road!

-Adrian

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Paul-253

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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Hi Roland,

You give the gear reduction but make the reader figure out your tire  
size! I mention that because I got a couple of cars (an EV and a  
conversion in progress) where the results are very different. The  
Datsun has taller gears - but more motor rpm per MPH in each gear.  
The VW Buggy has lower gears but less rpm per MPH in each gear. The  
difference is tire size - the buggy runs P225/75R15 tires and the  
Datsun P165/80R13 tires.

BTW - your tires are about 27.3 inches tall :-)

Paul

P.S. - I want to thank you for your contributions to this list.

> 1st gear ratio of 19.495:1 at 6000 rpm at 25 mph equals 161 motor  
> amps at 65
> battery amps.
>
> 2nd gear ratio of 13.925:1 at 6000 rpm at 35 mph equals 230 motor  
> amps at 75
> battery amps.
>
> 3rd gear ratio of 5.57:1 at 4000 rpm at 60 mph  equals  300 motor  
> amps with
> a battery ampere of 250 amps which is now becoming closer.

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David Nelson-5

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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Paul,

On Feb 5, 2008 6:16 PM, Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Roland,
>
> You give the gear reduction but make the reader figure out your tire
> size! I mention that because I got a couple of cars (an EV and a
> conversion in progress) where the results are very different. The
> Datsun has taller gears - but more motor rpm per MPH in each gear.
> The VW Buggy has lower gears but less rpm per MPH in each gear. The
> difference is tire size - the buggy runs P225/75R15 tires and the
> Datsun P165/80R13 tires.
>
> BTW - your tires are about 27.3 inches tall :-)
>
> Paul
>

He mentioned his tire circumference to be 90in in a previeous email in
this discussion.

--
David D. Nelson

http://evalbum.com/1328

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Roland Wiench

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The formula is:


Mph=(rpm x tire circumference)/(overall ratio x 1056)  

26.2 mph =(6000 x 90)/(19.495 x 1056)

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Nelson" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GAUGES FOR MY EV?


> Paul,
>
> On Feb 5, 2008 6:16 PM, Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Roland,
> >
> > You give the gear reduction but make the reader figure out your tire
> > size! I mention that because I got a couple of cars (an EV and a
> > conversion in progress) where the results are very different. The
> > Datsun has taller gears - but more motor rpm per MPH in each gear.
> > The VW Buggy has lower gears but less rpm per MPH in each gear. The
> > difference is tire size - the buggy runs P225/75R15 tires and the
> > Datsun P165/80R13 tires.
> >
> > BTW - your tires are about 27.3 inches tall :-)
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> He mentioned his tire circumference to be 90in in a previeous email in
> this discussion.
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
>
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Lee Hart

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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Lee Hart wrote:
>> You can get by without an ammeter... But it will be
>> difficult to judge how much farther you can go.

From: Roger Stockton
>I'm not sure I understand how an ammeter would help in this regard

I didn't word that very well. What I meant was that with only a voltmeter,  you only know when the pack is full (2.14v/cell at no load, when you started), or dead (1.75v/cell under load, at the end). It can read anything in between, and any state of charge.

An ammeter lets you guesstimate state of charge. "It sagged 5 volts at 100 amps; that's about 50% state of charge".

>> You will also have trouble charging, unless you have a fully
>> automatic (and trustworthy) charger.

> Hmmm... that's an interesting one.  I'd have to say that you and
> I have been using E-Meters for long enough to take having a digital
> ammeter for granted.  Clearly, an analog ammeter useful at traction
> level currents (i.e. 500A minimum full-scale) is not going to be
> particularly informative at charging level currents (typically <20A).

You're right for a cheap ammeter; its finest gradations are typically 5% of full scale (0-500a with marks every 25a). Good ones are 2%, or even 1% for a 270 deg. sweep movement (like one from a tachometer), i.e. marks every 5a for 500a full-scale.

You can make an ammeter read both positive (charging) and negative (driving) currents just by offsetting the zero adjust screw.

The slickest setup is to connect one meter to two shunts; one for charging and one for driving. For example, suppose your meter is marked 0-500a and is really 0-50mv (the standard setup). Connect a 500a 50mv shunt from pack+ to controller+. Connect a 50a shunt from charger+ to pack+. Connect the meter from charger+ to controller+. Now it reads the *total* drop across both shunts.

 - While driving, the charging current is zero; so the meter reads
   0-500a driving current.
 - While charging, the controller current is zero, so the meter reads
   charging current. Because the charging shunt is 50a, zero to full
   scale on the meter represents 0-50 amps.

You just have to remember that charging and driving have different scales (or mark the meter face with one scale for driving 0-500a, and one for charging 0-50a).

> One thing people should bear in mind is that just because a meter
> indicates digitally doesn't necesarily mean it is any more accurate
> than an analog meter.

Absolutely. Resolution is not accuracy! There are plenty of cheap digital meters that will tell you the voltage is 3.579v when it's really 4v! I have a variety of analog and digital meters. My most accurate ones are a Fluke 8020A (digital) and an ancient Simpson 260 (analog). The others display various random values scattered around the true value depending on temperature, the condition of their battery, etc.

The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Jeff Shanab

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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I am surprised the cross needle meter hasn't come up again, I think it
is an elegant solution.

http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html



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Geopilot

back emf on a driven wheel being feed back into the driving electrical motor via a magnetic coupling to boost the driving motor's output.

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In reply to this post by Paul-253
now here is an interesting concept.
A man hooked an electric motor metal output drive shaft to a metal wheel
with magnets on the rim. Around the magnet wheel were coils acting as a
generator. he overloaded the generator to created massive back emf. the
driving motor should have been slowed by the load.

The man found though that IF the linking shaft was metal fromt he
electric motor to the braking generator the back emf feed back into the
electric motor as magnetic field through the metal drive shaft speeding
up the driving motor.

If he replaced the metal drive shaft shaft with a non magnetic shaft
like plastic the attached wheel generated the expected braking action on
the motor via the back emf created in the coils ans the magnets passed
them. in other words with a plastic force drive shaft the load slowed
the driving motor as expected.

First time I have ever heard of the possibility of back emf on a driven
wheel being feed back into the driving electrical motor via a magnetic
coupling to boost the driving motor's output.

first story here in the Toronto Star Newspaper. 2nd Followup story below
it as the machine is taken to Massachusetts Institute of Technology
professor Markus Zahn to verify
also complete videos of the device working with and without metal shaft
as back emf is generated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLeKTlLy5E

`Holy crap, this is really scary,' inventor says of strange phenomenon
http://www.thestar.com/Article/300041

Feb 04, 2008 04:30 AM
<http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/94629>Tyler Hamilton
<http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/94629>
<http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/94629>
Energy Reporter
It all began back in 1985, when Thane Heins, having studied electronics
at Heritage College in Gatineau, Quebec, started thinking about how
magnets could be used to improve power generators.

But it wasn't until after the 9/11 attacks that he started seriously
experimenting in his basement, motivated by the desire to reduce our
dependence on oil and the countries that back terrorism.

Heins tinkered away, making what seemed like good progress, until one
day in early 2006 he stumbled on to something strange. As part of a
test, he had connected the driveshaft of an electric motor to a steel
rotor with small round magnets lining its outer edges. The idea was that
as the rotor spun, the magnets would pass by a wire coil placed just in
front of them to generate electrical energy – in other words, it would
operate like a simple generator.

The voltage was there, but to get current he had to attach an electrical
load to the coil – like a light bulb – or simply overload it, which
would cause it to slow down and eventually stop. Heins did the latter,
but instead of stopping, the rotor started to rapidly accelerate.

"The magnets started flying off and hitting the wall, and I had to duck
for cover," says Heins, surprised because he was using a weak motor. "It
was like, holy crap, this is really scary."

By overloading the generator, the current should have caused the coil to
build up a large electromagnetic field. This field typically creates an
effect called "Back EMF," described as Lenz's law in physics, which
would act to repel the approaching magnets on the rotor and slow down
the motor until it stopped. Some call it the law of diminishing returns,
or a law of conservation.

"Lenz's law is essentially magnetic friction, which is a form of
resistance not unlike the wind resistance your car experiences when
driving down the highway," explains Heins. More friction means more
power is necessary to maintain a constant speed.

Instead, the opposite happened. Somehow the magnetic friction had turned
into a magnetic boost. Back to the car analogy, it's like the wind
moving from the front to the back of the vehicle.

Days later, Heins realized what had happened: The steel rotor and
driveshaft had conducted the magnetic resistance away from the coil and
back into the heart of the electric motor. Since such motors work on the
principle of converting electrical energy into motion by creating
rotating magnetic fields, he figured the Back EMF was boosting those
fields, causing acceleration.

But how could this be? It would create a positive feedback loop. As the
motor accelerated faster it would create a larger electromagnetic field
on the generator coil, causing the motor to go faster, and so on and so
on. Heins confirmed his theory by replacing part of the driveshaft with
plastic pipe that wouldn't conduct the magnetic field. There was no
acceleration.

"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law
of conservation of energy," he says.

"Now, is that perpetual motion? Will it end up being that?"


THINKING BIG
TheStar.com | sciencetech | Turning physics on its ear
Turning physics on its ear
SEAN KILPATRICK/TORONTO STAR
Inventor Thane Heins with his electric motor invention, which he has
dubbed the Perepiteia, in lab in the basement of his home in Almonte,
near Ottawa.



Has college dropout done the impossible and created a perpetual motion
machine?

http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/300042
Feb 04, 2008 04:30 AM
<http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/94629>Tyler Hamilton
<http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/94629>
<http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/94629>
Energy Reporter

Thane Heins is nervous and hopeful. It's Jan. 24, a Thursday afternoon,
and in four days the Ottawa-area native will travel to Boston where
he'll demonstrate an invention that appears – though he doesn't dare say
it – to operate as a perpetual motion machine.

The audience, esteemed Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor
Markus Zahn, could either deflate Heins' heretical claims or add
momentum to a 20-year obsession that has broken up his marriage and lost
him custody of his two young daughters.

Zahn is a leading expert on electromagnetic and electronic systems. In a
rare move for any reputable academic, he has agreed to give Heins'
creation an open-minded look rather than greet it with outright dismissal.

It's a pivotal moment. The invention, at its very least, could
moderately improve the efficiency of induction motors, used in
everything from electric cars to ceiling fans. At best it means a way of
tapping the mysterious powers of electromagnetic fields to produce more
work out of less effort, seemingly creating electricity from nothing.

Such an unbelievable invention would challenge the laws of physics, a
no-no in the rigid world of serious science. Imagine a battery system in
an all-electric car that can be recharged almost exclusively by braking
and accelerating, or what Heins calls "regenerative acceleration."

No charging from the grid. No assistance from gasoline. No cost of
fuelling up. No way, say the skeptics.

"It sounds too good to be true," concedes Heins, who formed a company in
2005 called Potential Difference Inc. to develop and market his
invention. "We get dismissed pretty quickly sometimes."

It's for this reason the 46-year-old inventor has learned to walk on
thin ice when dealing with academics and engineers, who he must win over
to be taken seriously. Credibility, after all, can't be invented. It
must be earned. "I have to be humble. If you say the wrong thing at the
wrong time, you can lose support."

The creation in question is a new kind of generator called the
Perepiteia (read related story "Holy crap, this is really scary
<http://www.thestar.com/Article/300041>"), which in Greek theatre means
an action that has the opposite effect of what its doer intended. Heins
torques up the definition to mean "a sudden reversal of fortune that's a
windfall for humanity."

Deep down, Heins has high hopes. But he also realizes that merely using
those controversial words – "perpetual motion" – usually brands a person
as batty. In 2006, an Irish company called Steorn placed an
advertisement in /The Economist /calling on all the world's scientists
to validate its magnet-based "free energy" technology.

Steorn was met with intense skepticism and accused of being a scam or
hoax. Seventeen months later the company has failed, despite worldwide
attention, to prove anything under scrutiny. Well-educated people, from
Leonardo da Vinci to Harvard-trained engineer Bruce De Palma (older
brother of film director Brian De Palma), have made similar claims of
perpetual motion only to be slammed down by the mainstream scientific
community.

Heins has an even greater uphill battle. He isn't an engineer. He
doesn't have a graduate degrees in physics. He never even finished his
electronics program at Heritage College in Gatineau, Quebec. "I have
mild dyslexia and don't do well in math, so I didn't do very well in
school," he says.

What he does have is a chef's diploma, and spent time as chef at the
Canadian Museum of Civilization before launching his own restaurant in
Renfrew called the Old Town Hall Tea Room. He has also had political
ambitions. In 1999 he ran unsuccessfully as a candidate for the Green
Party of Ontario, deciding a year later to run as an independent in the
federal election.

Today, Heins is focused on showing his invention to anybody willing to
see it, in hopes that somebody smarter than him will give it
credibility. His long-time friend, Kim Cunningham, manager of
communications and government relations at the Ottawa Centre for
Research and Innovation (OCRI) is working part-time with Potential
Difference to help get the message out.

Together, they have demonstrated the Perepiteia to a number of labs and
universities across North America, including the University of Virginia,
Michigan State University, the University of Toronto and Queens University.

"It's generally always the same reaction," says Heins. "There's a bit of
a scramble on the part of the observer to put what they're seeing into
some sort of context with what they know. They can't explain it. They
don't know what it is."

He'd be happy if somebody did, even if the news was bad. His wife has
kicked him out. He doesn't earn an income. He can't pay child support.
The certainty would be welcome. "I've tried to quit many times, and
thought if I could just be a normal guy I would have a normal life ...
But I had this idea and I believe it works."

Others want to believe – or at least help out. Cunningham, whose brother
is general manager at Angus Glen Golf Club, introduced Heins to the
club's president, Kevin Thistle. For two years Thistle has acted as
angel investor, providing start-up capital needed to incorporate
Potential Difference, file patents and continue research.

Cunningham's boss, OCRI president Jeffrey Dale, helped open doors at the
University of Ottawa and make introductions to its dean of engineering.
As a result, Heins teamed up last fall with Riadh Habash, a professor at
the university's school of information technology and engineering.

"Dr. Habash has essentially rolled out the red carpet," says Heins,
explaining that he now has access to a university lab and all the
equipment he needs to test and simulate his generator.

In an interview with /the Toronto Star/, Habash was cautious but
matter-of-fact with what he's seen so far. "It accelerates, but when it
comes to an explanation, there is no backing theory for it. That's why
we're consulting MIT. But at this time we can't support any claim."

In the meantime, Heins has been on a letter-writing campaign to raise
money for his mission. He's written former U.S. vice-president Al Gore,
Virgin Group founder and billionaire Richard Branson and John Doerr at
venture capital powerhouse Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. He's also
tried to contact entrepreneur Elon Musk, chairman of electric car
upstart Tesla Motors, and the "ReCharge IT" project run by Google's
philanthropic arm.

So far no bites, though there have been nibbles. Heins has had
discussions with a well-known investor in Oregon, known to many as the
"godfather of start-ups," who is apparently flirting with the idea of
investing in Potential Difference. "We got the impression ... he's not
necessarily interested in making a tonne of money, he just wants to see
us succeed."

Just before the big day at MIT, /the Star /spoke with professor Markus
Zahn about what he expected to observe.

"It's hard for me to give an opinion," said Zahn, who admitted he was
excited to see the demonstration. "I don't believe it will violate the
laws of physics. You're not going to get more energy out than you put in."

He said it's easy for people to set up their tests wrong and
misinterpret what they see. "You've got to look closely."

It's now Jan. 28 – D Day. Heins has modified his test so the effects
observed are difficult to deny. He holds a permanent magnet a few
centimetres away from the driveshaft of an electric motor, and the
magnetic field it creates causes the motor to accelerate. It went well.

Contacted by phone a few hours after the test, Zahn is genuinely stumped
– and surprised. He said the magnet shouldn't cause acceleration. "It's
an unusual phenomena I wouldn't have predicted in advance. But I saw it.
It's real. Now I'm just trying to figure it out."

There's no talk of perpetual motion. No whisper of broken scientific
laws or free energy. Zahn would never go there – at least not yet. But
he does see the potential for making electric motors more efficient, and
this itself is no small feat.

"To my mind this is unexpected and new, and it's worth exploring all the
possible advantages once you're convinced it's a real effect," he added.
"There are an infinite number of induction machines in people's homes
and everywhere around the world. If you could make them more efficient,
cumulatively, it could make a big difference."

Driving home – he can't afford to fly – Heins is exhausted but
encouraged. He says Zahn will, and must, evaluate what he saw on his own
terms and time. What's preventing the engineer from grasping it right
away, he says, is his education, his scientific training.

Step by step, Heins is making progress, but where it will all lead
remains uncertain.


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Danny Miller-2

Re: back emf on a driven wheel being feed back into the driving electrical motor via a magnetic coupling to boost the driving motor's output.

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Afraid this is nonsense- in fact it's a repeat of previous plans.
They're thinking that people won't buy the "free energy" or "perpetual motion" thing so they just say the energy works better.  But no you can't take the energy you put into a motor and somehow recycle it.

Motors can already be high efficiency- like in the 90%+ range.  Some of the loss is in wire/brush/commutator resistance, a lot in the hysteresis losses of inducing and releasing the magnetic flux in the iron which is unavoidable if you want it to move.  But even if you had a "fantastic" solution that broke all known laws to give virtually 100% efficiency, it would only get you a small gain.

Anyhow, that being said this may sound plausible to some but it's just conventional quackery/fraud dressed up a bit to make it sound possible.  But it's quackery nonetheless and thus not an [EVDL] topic.

Danny

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David Roden-3

Re: back emf on a driven wheel ...

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In reply to this post by Geopilot
Please avoid posting about overunity devices, magnetic motors, free energy
and perpetual motion machines, and anything else that appears to violate the
laws of classical physics. Sorry, those subjects aren't appropriate for the
EVDL.

Try overunity.com instead. Electrifying Times also hosts some articles and
discussions dealing with these subjects.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Lee Hart

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I am surprised the cross needle meter hasn't come up again, I think it
> is an elegant solution.
> http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html

Yes, it is good. Two challenges; finding the special meter, and making
the special scale to match your actual batteries.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Roland Wiench

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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Here is the battery amp and volt meter as display at:

http://to-ev.net/pics/020.html

The meters indicates this display when the EV ignition is turn off.

When the ignition switch is turn on, the amp meter will read 0 amps and volt
meter will read about 200 volts.

As load is increase, the ampere will rise to about 180 amps while the
voltage drops to 170 volts at about 60 mph.

If I hold this speed of 60 mph up a very steep hill, the ampere could go to
600 amps, while the voltage drops to 150 volts.

Now if I continue to drive until the vehicle can not go any more, the
voltage will display 150 volts at 0 amps which is the same indications as if
I had the ignition switch off.

The above indications are with a set of 300 AH cells.  Now switching to 200
AH cells, the battery amps now become 260 amperes at 150 volts at 60 mph
(not hill climbing).

It becomes worst with 100 AH cells.

So how do I know what the ampere would be of a battery pack if I look at a
150 volt indication.  Is it 0 amps, 250 amps or 600 amps?

It has to be determine by how many miles you travel and/or how long ago you
charge the batteries.  After awhile you can determine this by the history of
your driving with a volt meter.

I have only use these two meters for about 25 years, which have cause me to
over ampere my motor many times. The field coils which are space on
insulated square rods had to be re-enamel.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GAUGES FOR MY EV?


> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I am surprised the cross needle meter hasn't come up again, I think it
> > is an elegant solution.
> > http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
>
> Yes, it is good. Two challenges; finding the special meter, and making
> the special scale to match your actual batteries.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Jeff Shanab

Re: GAUGES FOR MY EV?

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In reply to this post by Josh and Jenifer
On the small end, I would like to make a link 10 like device that has a
graphic display that displays the cross needle guage as one of it's modes.

On the big end, I have planned on providing this widget in my digital
dash design, where it would just be a software tweak.

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