GM reacts to the WWU EV1 Resurrection.

[Arak Leatham]

Does anyone have an oppinion about the IR Photocell GenSet?
 
The WWU website shows the Viking 23 Tested vehicle.
 
If low cost gensets are so very terrible maybe it has more possiblity than I was thinking.
 
It isn't expensive like a 'Capstone Microturbine', not large at all and is multi-fuel and easy to control for emissions. Very very light. It has no RPM limits, only a flow range.
 
I am only considering this for a prototype, so red-tape for existing hardware isn't a problem.
 
Also the XY, could be a stealth drop-in, for the kit market, or me personnally.



 




Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 13:30:10 -0600> From: [hidden email]> To: [hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's> CC: [hidden email]> > Not really. The Capstone Microturbine is the only one I found as appropriate (efficient, low emissions, not noisy as hell). A 10KW isn't even big enough really. For one, consider that you can't get 10KW of DC charging off of a 10KW AC generator, there's a power factor derating here. And if it's supposed to average out as you start and stop, the energy's flowing through the batts so batt cycle losses apply thus you won't get 10KW average to the controller.> > So unless your kwh/mi usage is very low, this may only maintain the batt's SOC at under 30 mph. You will have to use it to charge while parked so it won't enable you to drive across the state for example. I don't know your kwh/mi but I suspect a 20KW may be necessary as a minimum if you wanna us!
 e this as an unlimited-range series hybrid.> > What must be kept in mind is 10KW-20KW gas or diesel worksite-type generator running at full throttle is a noisy, smelly beast that will DEFINITELY attract the attention of anyone within 100 ft as you drive by. The noise you might have heard from such a genny at idle is not what you're gonna hear at full tilt. You will need hearing protection at 5-10 ft for a prolonged period. It is also probably illegal to drive a vehicle off such a gen because it's equivalent (probably worse) to taking off the cat and emissions system off the original engine. > > Now people convert their trucks to carb and remove the cat sometimes to beef them up and it's still legal in some locations. But you're sure gonna get noticed as a more obvious case- and not the good kind of attention.> > Danny> > ---- Arak Leatham <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > So are there any similar sized Genset with all the proper bells and wistles?> > I like valid compla!
 ints but I love viable solutions.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >!
  > > > A
rak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:37:11 -0600> From: [hidden email]> To: [hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's> > Yeah, we've been over this many times, including running the numbers.> > Basically, a consumer generator is an inefficient, noisy, dirty beast. No sensors, fuel injection system, or emissions system. No catalytic converter! Much smaller than a car engine but that's not important- what is is how many hp-hr you get out of a lb of fuel. And the genny's not really better. Once you figure in the battery cycle, controller, and electric motor losses, it's gonna be worse mpg than a normal car engine. But the emissions are the kicker. It's basically on par with a 70's car engine; the emissions per gallon (or per mile) may be 10x or more worse than a 2007 car engine.> > So, one has to ask what the goal is here. If a "range extender" is only used 10% of the miles but produces 10x the e!!
 > > missions per mile, was a "green vehicle" achieved?> > It is almost certainly illegal to run the genny on the street; it's the motive power and doesn't meet emissions by any stretch of the imagination. Running it in the parking lot may hide your sin from the cops but not from your own conscience.> > Danny> > ---- Dan Frederiksen <[hidden email]> wrote: > > as for a honda generator, it's my impression that that kind of generator > > has horrible efficiency. maybe because they run in near idle rpm where > > the efficiency of the ICE is even worse than normal. worth doing the > > math on if you intend it to run more than emergency use. I mean so bad > > that it makes an 8L big block look efficient.> > maybe it can be modified slightly to go higher rpm and give more power > > at greater efficiency but might require alteration of the electronics too> > > > Dan> > > > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.ed!
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[EVDL Administrator]

On 26 Dec 2007 at 22:13, Arak Leatham wrote:

> So are there any similar sized Genset with all the proper bells and wistles?

Passenger road vehicles are subject to stringent EPA regulations.  Road
trucks have significantly less challenging regulations.  Off-road vehicles
have even less, and stationary applications such as construction machinery
and gensets have the most "relaxed" regulation.  

Thus by its very nature any commercial genset will be a gross polluter
compared to a factory ICE vehicle.  

The answer is to make your own genset using a recent-model automobile engine
and retaining all the factory emissions control hardware.  That's a
significant challenge, not just because of the amount of hardware, but also
because of the engine's tight integration with modern vehicle design.  You'd
probably have to figure out how to fool the ECU (vehicle computer) into
believing that the engine was still linked to the transmission and the
vehicle was going down the road at some reasonable speed.

For this reason (and many others) parallel hybrid design is probably more
useful for homebrewing.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[Dan Frederiksen-2]

a parallel hybrid would be a terrible waste of effort for so little
benefit if any. a Prius is quite sophisticated and only manages to match
the good small ICE cars. I think there's a good chance a homemade
parallel hybrid would have worse mileage than the original ICE car. you
could make the electric drive on separate wheels but then you'd need a
'gas' pedal for that and hold down the clutch pedal all the time you
drive electric.
and we are looking for 10kW here, not 100 so a small motorcycle or
scooter motor will do and I imagine they can be efficient enough for the
rare usage it will see

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> For this reason (and many others) parallel hybrid design is probably more
> useful for homebrewing.
>  

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[Josh and Jenifer]

OK,  here is my million dollar secret hybrid design:   take a TransWarp 13
motor,  mount a clutch housing and clutch on the front,  bolt that to the
new hy-effecincey engine,  low speed, operate on electric, high speed,
operate on the ICE,  plug it in at home and drive around town on electric.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's

>a parallel hybrid would be a terrible waste of effort for so little
> benefit if any. a Prius is quite sophisticated and only manages to match
> the good small ICE cars. I think there's a good chance a homemade
> parallel hybrid would have worse mileage than the original ICE car. you
> could make the electric drive on separate wheels but then you'd need a
> 'gas' pedal for that and hold down the clutch pedal all the time you
> drive electric.
> and we are looking for 10kW here, not 100 so a small motorcycle or
> scooter motor will do and I imagine they can be efficient enough for the
> rare usage it will see
>
> EVDL Administrator wrote:
>> For this reason (and many others) parallel hybrid design is probably more
>> useful for homebrewing.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[gottdi]

Good luck finding the space.


On Dec 28, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Josh Creel wrote:

> OK,  here is my million dollar secret hybrid design:   take a  
> TransWarp 13
> motor,  mount a clutch housing and clutch on the front,  bolt that  
> to the
> new hy-effecincey engine,  low speed, operate on electric, high speed,
> operate on the ICE,  plug it in at home and drive around town on  
> electric.

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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's


> Good luck finding the space.
>  Hi EVerybody;

     I FOUND it! Lottsa room under school buses! A Warp 13" spliced in the
driveline, several hundred lbs of a123's on tap. Diseasel engine is STILL in
the drive train, but the driver has a Zilla at his/her fingertips and can
"Launch" with the electric. School buses stop an' go practically at EVERY
house. We all know that! You all have been stuck behind School Buses, right
up there with 12 mile long  fright trains at grade crossings, for stopping
up traffic! Once the bus is rolling, driver engages the Diseasel engine to
cruise the Turnpike. Steps on the brake and the batteries charge. Yeah,
Woopie doo, a hybrid, but I'll bet it would cut fuel consumption in half.
Especisally if there was a competition among drivers as to how little fuel
they used EVery day!?

     A Retrofit kit for school buses? Yeah, have ya priced out a NEW School
Bus? Think they go for Tesla prices? EVen with Led acids I think it could
work? What's a few tons of T-145's to a bus? That's my not so secret Hybrid
design until all the SB's are ELECTRIC! Most SB's sit all day waiting for
their call to duty, and, like us, sleep the night away? Live in a handy
central bus yard. As vehicles go they are rather chintzy(Light)
construction, for their size. IF I had alota money I would convert one and
lend it to my local skool district for trial. Same with a "Gone Postal" for
the local post office, with a more modest drive train.

   See ya

   Bob

>
> On Dec 28, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Josh Creel wrote:
>
>> OK,  here is my million dollar secret hybrid design:   take a
>> TransWarp 13
>> motor,  mount a clutch housing and clutch on the front,  bolt that
>> to the
>> new hy-effecincey engine,  low speed, operate on electric, high speed,
>> operate on the ICE,  plug it in at home and drive around town on
>> electric.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
>

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[gottdi]

:  )


On Dec 29, 2007, at 5:45 AM, Bob Rice wrote:

>  I FOUND it!

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[Danny Miller-2]

Well, here's what you have to deal with:
1.  A Warp 13" is a series wound and does not do regen AFAIK.
2.  Any energy captured through regen is subject to generator, batt cycle, controller, and motor losses.
3.  The braking energy when braking a car, much less a bus, is not a phenomenally large amount of energy but the flow rate- power- must be VERY fast to stop a car much less a bus.  The generating capability of the motor must be very high to recapture as much as it can.  But the real problem is this may translate into hundreds or thousands of charging amps to the battery and most batts can't handle it, or if they do it's very inefficiency.  A123 should do much, much better than other technologies though.
4.  The benefit of "buffering" the engine with a "hybrid drive train" in normal driving has reached urban legend proportions.  In fact it does little to increase mpg in most circumstances and may well decrease it.  Prius has one of the lowest drag coefficients ever seen in a production car.  Then they used an Atkinson engine which gets much better mpg but it has poor peak power to get the car off the starting line and the battery booster makes that engine drivable.  The lower drag/rolling resistance and more efficient engine alone already explain essentially all its mpg gains over other sedans.

Danny

---- Bob Rice <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
>
>
> > Good luck finding the space.
> >  Hi EVerybody;
>
>      I FOUND it! Lottsa room under school buses! A Warp 13" spliced in the
> driveline, several hundred lbs of a123's on tap. Diseasel engine is STILL in
> the drive train, but the driver has a Zilla at his/her fingertips and can
> "Launch" with the electric. School buses stop an' go practically at EVERY
> house. We all know that! You all have been stuck behind School Buses, right
> up there with 12 mile long  fright trains at grade crossings, for stopping
> up traffic! Once the bus is rolling, driver engages the Diseasel engine to
> cruise the Turnpike. Steps on the brake and the batteries charge. Yeah,
> Woopie doo, a hybrid, but I'll bet it would cut fuel consumption in half.
> Especisally if there was a competition among drivers as to how little fuel
> they used EVery day!?
>
>      A Retrofit kit for school buses? Yeah, have ya priced out a NEW School
> Bus? Think they go for Tesla prices? EVen with Led acids I think it could
> work? What's a few tons of T-145's to a bus? That's my not so secret Hybrid
> design until all the SB's are ELECTRIC! Most SB's sit all day waiting for
> their call to duty, and, like us, sleep the night away? Live in a handy
> central bus yard. As vehicles go they are rather chintzy(Light)
> construction, for their size. IF I had alota money I would convert one and
> lend it to my local skool district for trial. Same with a "Gone Postal" for
> the local post office, with a more modest drive train.
>
>    See ya
>
>    Bob
> >
> > On Dec 28, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Josh Creel wrote:
> >
> >> OK,  here is my million dollar secret hybrid design:   take a
> >> TransWarp 13
> >> motor,  mount a clutch housing and clutch on the front,  bolt that
> >> to the
> >> new hy-effecincey engine,  low speed, operate on electric, high speed,
> >> operate on the ICE,  plug it in at home and drive around town on
> >> electric.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> > 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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[liveoilfree]

"Liability" does not seem to be an acceptable reason.

Toyota SOLD their RAV4-EV between Mar. and Nov., 2002.
Hundreds of these "experimental" cars are still on the road, even though no one can buy new batteries for them (some limited 10-year-old batteries from crushed cars are still available).

So why is Toyota brave enough to sell their EV, but GM was not?

"Liability", like "fear of lawsuits", usually is invoked when a company does not want to reveal the real reasons for their actions.  So no reason to believe liability was a legitimate issue.  It could be a phony issue.

Who would believe GM, anyway??

Robert MacDowell wrote:

Liability.  They're an automaker, and I'll bet that changes their
product liability picture *dramatically* as compared to you and I.

What's more this is a completely NEW car with totally new technologies
no one had built before.  They weren't just slapping Optimas and a Zilla
into a Camaro.  Most of the features on this car, nobody knew how this
stuff would age.  Would the frame deteriorate over time and shatter on a
pothole on the 101?  Would corrosion in the controller cause traction
current to be exposed to the driver?  What if a future owner took one to
road-salt country?  Nobody knew.   This car is a wild weasel of
liability risk.

So cut GM some slack on this one.  What a horrid day for EVs if one was
publicly involved in a freak accident!

Now the EV1 race car is a different thing.  People expect race cars to
explode in a ball of flames.  Nobody sues Ford when a Mustang dragster
blows up because the racer is expected to modify every aspect of the
vehicle for racing.  Plus I believe this donation was prior to the
others (Sept. 2002)?


Robert

[liveoilfree]

Robert,
There were no catastrophic failures of the EV1.
Characteristically, when an auto maker sells a car, that's the end of liability.  In certain cases, with deliberate negligence being proven, for example in the case of GM gas tanks and Ford "flaming pinto", there were liability issues; but neither company confiscated and destroyed each and every faulty GM or Ford vehicle.

The destruction of the EV1, and the continued hostility by GM to any idea of the EV1, remains unique in the annals of corporate malfeasance.

Toyota had no such bogus rationale;

nor did GM, when it SOLD some of the S10E, which have the same drive train as the EV1;

or Ford, when it SOLD several dozen RangerEV.

So if GM were worried about liability, why not crush the S10E??  Which are still running fine.

So there is really no reason to believe GM, or to think that they have ANY legitimate excuse.

The EV1 were represented to CARB as "PRODUCTION VEHICLES".  If they were beta-test articles, I want ALL MY LEASE PAYMENTS RETURNED!!

GM claimed it was a production car, just as they are claiming the VOLT is "on production" track.

But then, who would believe GM??

Robert MacDowell wrote:

...When I said "accident" I did not mean
"routine traffic collision".  I meant catastrophic failure of the
vehicle itself due to one of the radical design elements failing. ...See, the EV1 was a unique *chassis*.  It deliberately employed a variety
of "never tried before on production automobiles" tchnologies
specifically to test them for use in future EVs.  It was a testbed, an
open beta.  The idea was always that GM would take the cars back to
study and/or retrofit.  That's why they were leases.  Am I wrong about
that?...

[Zeke Yewdall]

NREL is working on this already.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/ahhps/components_systems.html

Two years ago I got to look at one of the prototypes -- a 20 foot
delivery truck just like the graphic.  In a delivery route type use --
start stop, lower speed, they reported the mileage increased from 6 to
10mpg IIRC.

Z

On Dec 29, 2007 10:48 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, here's what you have to deal with:
> 1.  A Warp 13" is a series wound and does not do regen AFAIK.
> 2.  Any energy captured through regen is subject to generator, batt cycle, controller, and motor losses.
> 3.  The braking energy when braking a car, much less a bus, is not a phenomenally large amount of energy but the flow rate- power- must be VERY fast to stop a car much less a bus.  The generating capability of the motor must be very high to recapture as much as it can.  But the real problem is this may translate into hundreds or thousands of charging amps to the battery and most batts can't handle it, or if they do it's very inefficiency.  A123 should do much, much better than other technologies though.
> 4.  The benefit of "buffering" the engine with a "hybrid drive train" in normal driving has reached urban legend proportions.  In fact it does little to increase mpg in most circumstances and may well decrease it.  Prius has one of the lowest drag coefficients ever seen in a production car.  Then they used an Atkinson engine which gets much better mpg but it has poor peak power to get the car off the starting line and the battery booster makes that engine drivable.  The lower drag/rolling resistance and more efficient engine alone already explain essentially all its mpg gains over other sedans.
>
> Danny
>
>
> ---- Bob Rice <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:26 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
> >
> >
> > > Good luck finding the space.
> > >  Hi EVerybody;
> >
> >      I FOUND it! Lottsa room under school buses! A Warp 13" spliced in the
> > driveline, several hundred lbs of a123's on tap. Diseasel engine is STILL in
> > the drive train, but the driver has a Zilla at his/her fingertips and can
> > "Launch" with the electric. School buses stop an' go practically at EVERY
> > house. We all know that! You all have been stuck behind School Buses, right
> > up there with 12 mile long  fright trains at grade crossings, for stopping
> > up traffic! Once the bus is rolling, driver engages the Diseasel engine to
> > cruise the Turnpike. Steps on the brake and the batteries charge. Yeah,
> > Woopie doo, a hybrid, but I'll bet it would cut fuel consumption in half.
> > Especisally if there was a competition among drivers as to how little fuel
> > they used EVery day!?
> >
> >      A Retrofit kit for school buses? Yeah, have ya priced out a NEW School
> > Bus? Think they go for Tesla prices? EVen with Led acids I think it could
> > work? What's a few tons of T-145's to a bus? That's my not so secret Hybrid
> > design until all the SB's are ELECTRIC! Most SB's sit all day waiting for
> > their call to duty, and, like us, sleep the night away? Live in a handy
> > central bus yard. As vehicles go they are rather chintzy(Light)
> > construction, for their size. IF I had alota money I would convert one and
> > lend it to my local skool district for trial. Same with a "Gone Postal" for
> > the local post office, with a more modest drive train.
> >
> >    See ya
> >
> >    Bob
> > >
> > > On Dec 28, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Josh Creel wrote:
> > >
> > >> OK,  here is my million dollar secret hybrid design:   take a
> > >> TransWarp 13
> > >> motor,  mount a clutch housing and clutch on the front,  bolt that
> > >> to the
> > >> new hy-effecincey engine,  low speed, operate on electric, high speed,
> > >> operate on the ICE,  plug it in at home and drive around town on
> > >> electric.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> > > 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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[Mike Willmon]

Check Netgain Technologies, LLC.  EMIS system designed for just such an
application:
http://www.go-ev.com/EMIS-Desc.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Bob Rice
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 4:46 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
>
>
> > Good luck finding the space.
> >  Hi EVerybody;
>
>      I FOUND it! Lottsa room under school buses! A Warp 13" spliced in the
> driveline, several hundred lbs of a123's on tap. Diseasel engine is STILL

in

> the drive train, but the driver has a Zilla at his/her fingertips and can
> "Launch" with the electric. School buses stop an' go practically at EVERY
> house. We all know that! You all have been stuck behind School Buses,
> right
> up there with 12 mile long  fright trains at grade crossings, for stopping
> up traffic! Once the bus is rolling, driver engages the Diseasel engine to
> cruise the Turnpike. Steps on the brake and the batteries charge. Yeah,
> Woopie doo, a hybrid, but I'll bet it would cut fuel consumption in half.
> Especisally if there was a competition among drivers as to how little fuel
> they used EVery day!?
>
>      A Retrofit kit for school buses? Yeah, have ya priced out a NEW

School
> Bus? Think they go for Tesla prices? EVen with Led acids I think it could
> work? What's a few tons of T-145's to a bus? That's my not so secret
Hybrid
> design until all the SB's are ELECTRIC! Most SB's sit all day waiting for
> their call to duty, and, like us, sleep the night away? Live in a handy
> central bus yard. As vehicles go they are rather chintzy(Light)
> construction, for their size. IF I had alota money I would convert one and
> lend it to my local skool district for trial. Same with a "Gone Postal"
for

> the local post office, with a more modest drive train.
>
>    See ya
>
>    Bob
> >
> > On Dec 28, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Josh Creel wrote:
> >
> >> OK,  here is my million dollar secret hybrid design:   take a
> >> TransWarp 13
> >> motor,  mount a clutch housing and clutch on the front,  bolt that
> >> to the
> >> new hy-effecincey engine,  low speed, operate on electric, high
> speed,
> >> operate on the ICE,  plug it in at home and drive around town on
> >> electric.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> > 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
> >
> >
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[Arak Leatham]

Huh? found what?



 




Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> From: [hidden email]> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:34:35 -0800> To: [hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's> > : )> > > On Dec 29, 2007, at 5:45 AM, Bob Rice wrote:> > > I FOUND it!> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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