Inefficient drivetrain

[damon henry]

I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my 1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly strong breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.  About the only thing which I think I could change without replacing the transmission or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am using Valvoline Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner that I can try which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?  Or is it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?

 

thanks

damon
     
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[Dave Davidson-3]

Before tearing into your drive train, check to make sure your brakes
aren't dragging and your front end alignment is correct. You should
not feel any braking effect. You should just be coasting, although
some EVs will coast down faster than others.

Dave

On 10/26/09, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my 1970
> Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the
> tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly strong
> breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.  About the
> only thing which I think I could change without replacing the transmission
> or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am using Valvoline
> Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner that I can try which
> I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?  Or is it normal for the
> combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a bit of drag
> on an old Datsun?
>
>
>
> thanks
>
> damon
>    
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[David Dymaxion]

Maybe your tranny is just cold. Some of my ICE cars would have noticeable tranny resistance in winter until they warmed up. The ICE car has the "advantage" that waste heat from the motor wicks into the tranny.

AC propulsion uses the motor coils as part of the charging system, and say that bit of waste heat generated helps warm the tranny, and that is one of the reasons for their extraordinarily good efficiency.


     
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[damon henry]

Thanks, I understand the value of doing that as well, but those losses are present and remain unchanged whether I am in nuetral or not.  I am specifically concerned about the slowdown I feel when I engage the drivetrain.

 

damon
 

> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:41:40 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain
>
> Before tearing into your drive train, check to make sure your brakes
> aren't dragging and your front end alignment is correct. You should
> not feel any braking effect. You should just be coasting, although
> some EVs will coast down faster than others.
>
> Dave
>
> On 10/26/09, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my 1970
> > Datsun truck. If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the
> > tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly strong
> > breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric. About the
> > only thing which I think I could change without replacing the transmission
> > or rear end is to change the gear oil. Right now I am using Valvoline
> > Synthetic 75W - 90 in both. Is there something thinner that I can try which
> > I can also be confident won't harm these old gears? Or is it normal for the
> > combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a bit of drag
> > on an old Datsun?
> >
> >
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > damon
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009
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[Eduardo Kaftanski]

If the breaking effect changes when the clutch goes in, its most likely
not the differential or the tranny.

You should look on how hard is tu turn the motor by itself with the
transmission in
neutral.


On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:37 PM, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my 1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly strong breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.  About the only thing which I think I could change without replacing the transmission or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am using Valvoline Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner that I can try which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?  Or is it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?
>
>
>
> thanks
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009
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[Roland Wiench]

Hello Damon,

I use the same gear oil in the differential as you do, but the transmission
oil is lot thinner that I get from the dealer which is design for my
transmission.

You can do a drive line torque test if you have a pilot shaft on the motor.
Here is some data with my EV that weighs 7070 lbs using a inch lbs torque
wrench turning at 1 rpm on a bolt in the pilot shaft of the main motor.

The EV is on dead level concrete floor with tires at 65 psi with a 3/8 inch
deflection rate with a differential gear ratio of 5.57:1


Gear     Overall Gear Ratio     Torque in Inch Pounds

 1st          19.495                   8 in.lbs.
 2nd          13.925                  12 in.lbs.
 3rd           5.57                   25 in.lbs.

I record this data for future reference tests, to see if anything has
change.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[hidden email]>
To: "EV List" <[hidden email]>; "Nedra Yahoo List Nedra"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:37 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain

>
> I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my 1970
> Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the
> tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly strong
> breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.  About the
> only thing which I think I could change without replacing the transmission
> or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am using Valvoline
> Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner that I can try
> which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?  Or is it normal
> for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a
> bit of drag on an old Datsun?
>
>
>
> thanks
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009
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[Dave Hymers]

uh, I may be way off, but you are attempting to rev match back from coasting
right ? (not rev matching would indeed cause a nice brake effect...)
is that something that carries over to EV's with clutches ?
*need enlightening*
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[Gary Sanchez-2]

If you are already moving, transmission, driveline and rear end
are already moving. The transmission, driveline and rear end are
driven by the wheels when no power is applied. The braking effect
you feel is the motor being spun up to match the drive train
after coasting with no power. Doesn't your electric motor
essentially freewheel when power is removed? It seems that the
braking you experience when the clutch is let out can be avoided
by not using the clutch or the transmission to freewheel but by
merely cutting the power to the motor and not applying any regen,
if you have that feature.

Gary Sanchez
www.CareerPro.com
800.780.0211
888.400.9145 fax
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:37
To: EV List; Nedra Yahoo List Nedra
Subject: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain


I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain
of my 1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the
clutch in, or the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in
gear there is a fairly strong breakiing effect, much more than I
would expect on an electric.  About the only thing which I think
I could change without replacing the transmission or rear end is
to change the gear oil.  Right now I am using Valvoline Synthetic
75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner that I can try
which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?  Or is
it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end
to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?

 

thanks

damon
     
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New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
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[joe-22]

Use ATF fluid - that's what I used in my '76 Datsun PU. It seemed to work
well.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[hidden email]>
To: "EV List" <[hidden email]>; "Nedra Yahoo List Nedra"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:37 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain

>
> I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my 1970
> Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the
> tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly strong
> breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.  About the
> only thing which I think I could change without replacing the transmission
> or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am using Valvoline
> Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner that I can try
> which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?  Or is it normal
> for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a
> bit of drag on an old Datsun?
>
>
>
> thanks
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009
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[Dave Davidson-3]

Ok, I didn't read your message correctly. Sorry. I think some guys use
a much lighter oil in the transmission and rear end. They can't drive
far enough on a charge to heat up the fluids so don't need that kind
of protection against the thinning brought on by high temperatures.

Also, a long shot, but did you happen to connect the plug braking? It
will slow your motor down quickly and should not be used.

Dave

On 10/26/09, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Thanks, I understand the value of doing that as well, but those losses are
> present and remain unchanged whether I am in nuetral or not.  I am
> specifically concerned about the slowdown I feel when I engage the
> drivetrain.
>
>
>
> damon
>
>> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:41:40 -0400
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain
>>
>> Before tearing into your drive train, check to make sure your brakes
>> aren't dragging and your front end alignment is correct. You should
>> not feel any braking effect. You should just be coasting, although
>> some EVs will coast down faster than others.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 10/26/09, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my
>> > 1970
>> > Datsun truck. If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the
>> > tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly
>> > strong
>> > breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric. About
>> > the
>> > only thing which I think I could change without replacing the
>> > transmission
>> > or rear end is to change the gear oil. Right now I am using Valvoline
>> > Synthetic 75W - 90 in both. Is there something thinner that I can try
>> > which
>> > I can also be confident won't harm these old gears? Or is it normal for
>> > the
>> > combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a bit of
>> > drag
>> > on an old Datsun?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > thanks
>> >
>> > damon
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
>> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009
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[Dennis Miles-2]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:37 PM, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my 1970
> Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or the
> tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly strong
> breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.  About the
> only thing which I think I could change without replacing the transmission
> or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am using Valvoline
> Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner that I can try which
> I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?  Or is it normal for the
> combined transmission, driveline, and rear end to create quite a bit of drag
> on an old Datsun?
>
>
>
> thanks
>
> damon
>
> =================== A lot of good ideas presented ! ==================
>

Damon,  perhaps it is time for some simple testing to determine where the
"braking"
is really coming from. (Just a suggestion...)
Take the EV out to a straight level quiet stretch of road. Pick a start
point and accelerate to 25 mph, remove foot from all pedals and coast down
to 15 mph. How many seconds did it take? Record the time.
Go back to the same start point and accelerate to
25 again. cut throttle and press clutch to floor, again time to slow to 15,
and record seconds.
Go back again and accelerate to 25 again but this time put transmission into
neutral and time to slow to 15 again and record seconds.
Are there significant differences?
If all seem about equal, perhaps you are noticing the inertia spinning the
motor, and flywheel assembly back up to speed  when you engage the clutch
after coasting?
If there are differences which components are spinning when EV slows mist
rapidly?

Regards,
         Dennis Miles   <Director>
         EV Technical Institute Inc.
    In Lakeland, Florida Call [863] 289-0690
  Training the Tech/mechs to build, repair, and
service Today's and Tomorrow's Electric Cars !
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[Pestka, Dennis J]

Damon;

I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it's the transmission or rear
end gear oil.
I'm using standard 75W-90 in my 65 Datsun rear and tranny.
My truck wants to run away on hills, in gear.
I usually have to brake to slow it down.

What a waste of perfectly good regen !



Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366
 

-----Original Message-----
From: damon henry [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:37 PM
To: EV List; Nedra Yahoo List Nedra
Subject: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain


I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my
1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or
the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly
strong breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.
About the only thing which I think I could change without replacing the
transmission or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am
using Valvoline Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner
that I can try which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?
Or is it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end
to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?

 

thanks

damon
     
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID2
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[Duane Engle]

One solution is to find a stock tranny with overdrive for the Datsun. Another is changing rear wheel dia. for more 'overdrive' but sacrifice low-end torque.

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, Pestka, Dennis J <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Pestka, Dennis J <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>, "Nedra Yahoo List Nedra" <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 1:52 PM


Damon;

I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it's the transmission or rear
end gear oil.
I'm using standard 75W-90 in my 65 Datsun rear and tranny.
My truck wants to run away on hills, in gear.
I usually have to brake to slow it down.

What a waste of perfectly good regen !



Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: damon henry [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:37 PM
To: EV List; Nedra Yahoo List Nedra
Subject: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain


I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my
1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or
the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly
strong breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.
About the only thing which I think I could change without replacing the
transmission or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am
using Valvoline Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner
that I can try which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?
Or is it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end
to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?



thanks

damon
                         
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[George Tyler]

What gear are you in when you do this test? I think there is a basic flaw in
your thinking here, the drive train is still connected to the wheels when
you put it in neutral, if the resistance is reduced under these conditions
then it is not the drive train, well, there are parts of the transmission
disconnected but not much. I seems to be the electric motor causing the
resistance, it will be worse in first gear than top, etc like others have
said.


I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it's the transmission or rear
end gear oil.
I'm using standard 75W-90 in my 65 Datsun rear and tranny.
My truck wants to run away on hills, in gear.
I usually have to brake to slow it down.

What a waste of perfectly good regen !



Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: damon henry [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:37 PM
To: EV List; Nedra Yahoo List Nedra
Subject: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain


I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my
1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or
the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly
strong breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.
About the only thing which I think I could change without replacing the
transmission or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am
using Valvoline Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner
that I can try which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?
Or is it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end
to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?



thanks

damon
                         
_________________________________________________________________
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[Peter C. Thompson]

What about the synchromesh?  I would imagine that the drag would greatly
increase (initially) in the following scenario:  transmission in
neutral, and clutch in, then put transmission in gear, but still in
neutral.  The process of putting the transmission into a gear would have
the effect of the synchromesh matching the transmission speed to the
clutch plate speed.

Just a thought.

Cheers,
    Peter

George Tyler wrote:

> What gear are you in when you do this test? I think there is a basic flaw in
> your thinking here, the drive train is still connected to the wheels when
> you put it in neutral, if the resistance is reduced under these conditions
> then it is not the drive train, well, there are parts of the transmission
> disconnected but not much. I seems to be the electric motor causing the
> resistance, it will be worse in first gear than top, etc like others have
> said.
>
>
> I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it's the transmission or rear
> end gear oil.
> I'm using standard 75W-90 in my 65 Datsun rear and tranny.
> My truck wants to run away on hills, in gear.
> I usually have to brake to slow it down.
>
> What a waste of perfectly good regen !
>
>
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: damon henry [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:37 PM
> To: EV List; Nedra Yahoo List Nedra
> Subject: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain
>
>
> I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my
> 1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or
> the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly
> strong breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.
> About the only thing which I think I could change without replacing the
> transmission or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am
> using Valvoline Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner
> that I can try which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?
> Or is it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end
> to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?
>
>
>
> thanks
>
> damon
>                          
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID2
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[phone]
AIM: PThompson509       Yahoo!:peter_thompson       MSN:
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[Jeff Shanab]

I have really awful wh/mile myself. but in my case it seems to be tied
to acceleration and not cruising.  I have to do some research myself.
The alignment is poor and the rear brakes on a z car always drag.

But if yours is so drastic, something should be getting hotter than the
rest.

For example the front wheels will usually be hotter than the rear
because of braking (you drive fwd and front brakes get the workout cause
of weight transfer)
left and right wheel pairs should be the same.

Now in your case, it sounds like it is not in the wheels. Perhaps there
is a miss-alignment that is wasting energy in repeatedly bending and
unbending something.
Drive lines in a bind can do this. bent input shaft to tranny or
non-parallel mount ?

Luckily you have a meter for efficiency.
If you have a motor tach and a good controller, this is safe

Measure the motor amps and volts at a known rpm
Put it up on jack stands and Measure the same data point.
Disconnect the driveline and repeat the test
try all combinations you can think of.

If the test is running stable (got a helper) just crack the bolts loose
to the tranny and see if it oscillates.

just some thoughts.

> I think I am losing more power than I need to in the drivetrain of my
> 1970 Datsun truck.  If I go from coasting, either with the clutch in, or
> the tranny in nuetral and put the truck back in gear there is a fairly
> strong breakiing effect, much more than I would expect on an electric.
> About the only thing which I think I could change without replacing the
> transmission or rear end is to change the gear oil.  Right now I am
> using Valvoline Synthetic 75W - 90 in both.  Is there something thinner
> that I can try which I can also be confident won't harm these old gears?
> Or is it normal for the combined transmission, driveline, and rear end
> to create quite a bit of drag on an old Datsun?
>
>
>
> thanks
>
> damon

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[Derek Dillon]

When you are coasting in neutral or with the clutch in, the motor slows
down or stops completely. When you engage the gear and lift the
clutch the forward motion of your car speeds the motor and flywheel
back up again. The braking effect is the energy expended bringing the
motor and flywheel back up to speed.

Derek Dillon

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[Dave Hymers]

Thanks Derek, that's what I thought, just like an ICE car essentially, if
the motor is not spinning the flywheel, or its spinning slower
a large braking effect will be witnessed when the clutch makes contact with
it again.
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[damon henry]

Yes, but the flywheel was significantly lightened, and the little motor can pretty easily be turned over by hand.  To compare the effect to an ICE, which is still fully compressing the air in all cylinders plus turning a bunch of moving parts, is a little extreme.  Still, I do think spinning back up the flywheel is a significant portion of what I am feeling.  After wading through a bunch of opinions I don't think there is anything out of the ordinary going on here and likely not a lot of room for improvement, but I did get some good ideas I plan on trying.

 

thanks

damon
 

> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:17:16 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Inefficient drivetrain
>
> Thanks Derek, that's what I thought, just like an ICE car essentially, if
> the motor is not spinning the flywheel, or its spinning slower
> a large braking effect will be witnessed when the clutch makes contact with
> it again.
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[Dave Hymers]

you're right... I'd expect the same with a light flywheel and little motor
resistance and probably end up just as confused. Good luck!
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