KAT Battery Wrap

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Bill Dennis

KAT Battery Wrap

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Roland,
  I looked at the KAT battery wraps you mentioned, and they all have the
following warning:

   Do Not Use if Temperature is Above Freezing

  I'm assuming that you're using them inside your battery boxs even when
the temp. is above freezing.  Is that correct?  Can you give a little more
info?

Thanks.

Bill

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Lee Hart

Re: KAT Battery Wrap

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[hidden email] wrote:
> Roland,
>   I looked at the KAT battery wraps you mentioned, and they all have the
> following warning:
>
>    Do Not Use if Temperature is Above Freezing
>
>   I'm assuming that you're using them inside your battery boxs even when
> the temp. is above freezing.  Is that correct?  Can you give a little more
> info?

I'm dealing with exactly this problem for a client right now. He has
battery heating wraps in his fleet of EV battery boxes. It turns out
that these heaters use simple resistance wire (resistance does not
change with temperature), and they have no built-in thermostat. If
plugged into 120vac during warm weather, they overheat the batteries.

He doesn't want to have to remember to plug/unplug the heater depending
on temperature (wants a thermostat added). He also wants to be able to
power the heater from either AC line voltage (using the onboard charger,
so 120vac is available in the car), or pack voltage (when using the
offboard charger, that brings only DC into the car).

I've designed and built a prototype system that does this. If AC power
is present, it uses that for the heater. If AC is not present, it
measures pack voltage, and if above 2.25v/cell (13.5v for a 12v battery
etc.) it assumes a charger is in use, and powers the heater from pack
voltage. A thermostat turns on the heater below 59 deg.F, and back off
at 65 deg.F.

Since he has several vehicles, I'm laying out a PC board for it. If
others are interested in one of these, I can make extras. I don't know
the price yet (it will depend on quantities, and whether you need it
assembled or packaged).
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Roland Wiench

Re: KAT Battery Wrap

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Hello Bill,

I had no problem, when I was using them on my old battery boxes that was not
insulated at the time.  The ones I have, have a maximum thermostat
temperature rating of 80 F. degrees.

Maybe the problem is, when the temperature is at 32 F or lower and the
batteries are at 80 F. and you have a fast rising ambient temperature, it
may raise the battery temperature above its safe operating temperature.

Or it could be that the thermostat sensor was not next to the batteries and
reading a cooler ambient temperature which keeps the heat blanket on all the
time, even when the battery temperature is at or above 80 F. degrees.

To prevent this from happening, I terminated the cord ends to a power
terminal block.  The battery blanket thermostat was wrap with in the battery
box, so it only senses the temperature inside the battery box.

A AC 120 volt contactor with a 120 vac coil turn on and off all the power to
these blankets.  A HoneyWell line volt 120 vac ambient air thermostat that
can be adjusted from 0 to 100 degrees control the 120 vac coils of these
contactors.

This HoneyWell thermostat has a sensor bulb that is place in side the
battery box with the control box outside the battery box.  You can get these
units from a heating supply company.

Each battery blanket has its own thermo unit plus one main control thermo
for all the blankets. It is a safety back up, because sometimes these
blankets or tape type heaters thermostat may stop working causing the
blanket to be on all the time.

When I install new fiberglass double insulated battery boxes with 2 to 4
inches of foam, the batteries never drop below 65 F. Degrees after setting
outside.  After I charge the batteries the battery and driving at least 5
miles, the battery temperature will raise between 75 to 80 F. degrees when
the ambient temperature is at 0 to 32 F. degrees.

In using this type of battery blanket, you have to determine what the
maximum temperature you want.  I set it at 65 F. Degrees which allows some
room for the batteries to raise in temperature while charging and under load
unlike cranking type batteries which are only loaded during cranking the
engine.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:24 AM
Subject: [EVDL] KAT Battery Wrap


Roland,
  I looked at the KAT battery wraps you mentioned, and they all have the
following warning:

   Do Not Use if Temperature is Above Freezing

  I'm assuming that you're using them inside your battery boxs even when
the temp. is above freezing.  Is that correct?  Can you give a little more
info?

Thanks.

Bill

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Bill Dube

Re: KAT Battery Wrap

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It is best to run the heaters _after_ the charge is complete (or very
nearly complete) for two reasons:

1) The added current draw of the heaters can trip the supply breaker.

2) The batteries typically heat up during the last portion of the
charge. If you run the heaters first, the batteries will end up
hotter than you intended. You can also trigger thermal runaway inadvertently.

Interlocking or triggering the heaters on battery voltage could work
nicely. The heaters would not come on until the end of charge. If the
batteries were quite warm, the final charge voltage would be reduced.
This might be a good way to "double check" the thermostat operation.

I'm not sure that you would want to run the heaters on the pack
energy. A problem could run the pack down and strand you. A cold pack
is better than a dead pack, after all. Also, running on pack energy
could confuse the charger programming. It could also result in less
than a full charge in the time you expect a full charge.

Bill Dube'

>I'm dealing with exactly this problem for a client right now. He has
>battery heating wraps in his fleet of EV battery boxes. It turns out
>that these heaters use simple resistance wire (resistance does not
>change with temperature), and they have no built-in thermostat. If
>plugged into 120vac during warm weather, they overheat the batteries.
>
>He doesn't want to have to remember to plug/unplug the heater depending
>on temperature (wants a thermostat added). He also wants to be able to
>power the heater from either AC line voltage (using the onboard charger,
>so 120vac is available in the car), or pack voltage (when using the
>offboard charger, that brings only DC into the car).
>
>I've designed and built a prototype system that does this. If AC power
>is present, it uses that for the heater. If AC is not present, it
>measures pack voltage, and if above 2.25v/cell (13.5v for a 12v battery
>etc.) it assumes a charger is in use, and powers the heater from pack
>voltage. A thermostat turns on the heater below 59 deg.F, and back off
>at 65 deg.F.
>
>Since he has several vehicles, I'm laying out a PC board for it. If
>others are interested in one of these, I can make extras. I don't know
>the price yet (it will depend on quantities, and whether you need it
>assembled or packaged).
>--
>Lee A. Hart             | Ring the bells that still can ring
>814 8th Ave N           | Forget the perfect offering
>Sartell MN 56377        | There is a crack in everything
>leeahart earthlink.net  | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
>_______________________________________________
>General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Lee Hart

Re: KAT Battery Wrap

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Bill Dube wrote:

> It is best to run the heaters _after_ the charge is complete (or very
> nearly complete) for two reasons:
>
> 1) The added current draw of the heaters can trip the supply breaker.
>
> 2) The batteries typically heat up during the last portion of the
> charge. If you run the heaters first, the batteries will end up
> hotter than you intended. You can also trigger thermal runaway inadvertently.
>
> Interlocking or triggering the heaters on battery voltage could work
> nicely. The heaters would not come on until the end of charge. If the
> batteries were quite warm, the final charge voltage would be reduced.
> This might be a good way to "double check" the thermostat operation.
>
> I'm not sure that you would want to run the heaters on the pack
> energy. A problem could run the pack down and strand you. A cold pack
> is better than a dead pack, after all. Also, running on pack energy
> could confuse the charger programming. It could also result in less
> than a full charge in the time you expect a full charge.

Good points, Bill.

In this case, the battery heater draws 1.3a at 120vac, and 0.8a at
72vdc. The batteries are 8v 175ah, being charged with a 40a charger. So
an extra 0.8a draw for the heater is "lost in the noise".

But if one had an unusually high power battery heater, and/or an
unusually low current charger, there could be an issue.

Thermal runaway is very unlikely, as the heater is controlled by a
thermostat which won't turn on unless the batteries are below 59 deg.F.

I sense pack voltage before allowing the heater to run on DC, precisely
to keep it from discharging the pack. The pack voltage falls below
2.25v/cell very quickly after the charger turns off. In any case, there
is a pot to set the precise voltage above which the heater can run on
pack voltage.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Rush-5

Re: KAT Battery Wrap

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Lee,

Any word on when the Controller for the Battery Balancer will  be finished?

I have 4 relay boards that have been sitting here for about 2 years now...

Rush
Tucson AZ


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Metric Mind

Re: KAT Battery Wrap

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Zebra battery is quite a different beast and cannot survive without
heaters run off the battery itself, but doing so doesn't seem to present
any major problems as they *had* to work out details or else the battery
wouldn't function at all.

Zebra runs heaters full power off AC mains when available, and runs
at reduced power (I believe ~100W, just enough to maintain working temp)
in autonomous mode. If you forget to plug in Zebra for a long time
(~ a week) and it runs internal heaters 24/7, it eventually will
disconnect them, turn itself off and "freeze", sort of like a
laptop forced to hibernate. That mimics the problem of forgetting
to turn off heaters (or having trouble with controls) with
conventional battery - either one goes dead until next charge.
The only difference, Zebra goes "dead" by design, heaters truly
disconnect before freezing process. In amateur approach if
heaters fail to disconnect when the battery nearing 0% SOC (which is
OK as far battery is just discharged, but not damaged), the battery
can be ruined for good.

Bottom line - this can be done but have good supervisor circuit if
you run heaters off the pack you're heating.

Victor

Bill Dube wrote:

> It is best to run the heaters _after_ the charge is complete (or very
> nearly complete) for two reasons:
>
> 1) The added current draw of the heaters can trip the supply breaker.
>
> 2) The batteries typically heat up during the last portion of the
> charge. If you run the heaters first, the batteries will end up
> hotter than you intended. You can also trigger thermal runaway inadvertently.
>
> Interlocking or triggering the heaters on battery voltage could work
> nicely. The heaters would not come on until the end of charge. If the
> batteries were quite warm, the final charge voltage would be reduced.
> This might be a good way to "double check" the thermostat operation.
>
> I'm not sure that you would want to run the heaters on the pack
> energy. A problem could run the pack down and strand you. A cold pack
> is better than a dead pack, after all. Also, running on pack energy
> could confuse the charger programming. It could also result in less
> than a full charge in the time you expect a full charge.
>
> Bill Dube'

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