Lithium batteries availability

[SteveS-5]

I've been on this list only a few weeks, but I've seen  a lot of
discussion on Lithium batteries. It seems there are everywhere but
nowhere. So, who actually sells these things in reasonable quantities? I
know some of the high-performance guys have them, but who is selling to
the general public? Who has actually purchased a set and used them? I
really would like to get some positive answers because I'd like to use them.

- SteveS

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[gottdi]

Like the Tesla and Zotye? EVry where but nowhere! Hammer has hit the  
head of the nail.
On Jan 16, 2008, at 8:46 AM, SteveS wrote:

> it seems there are everywhere but
> nowhere.

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[Morgan LaMoore]

Hi,

I don't think that anyone has yet purchased an affordable set of
Lithium batteries for a full EV. Just these past few months we've been
talking about new, cheaper manufacturers, though.

I *might* purchase a (relatively big) motorcycle-sized set this summer
for $3k-$5k, depending on how finances turn out (not looking good
right now :-(  ). I know several others are seriously considering it,
but I don't know of anyone who has committed to it.

Another barrier is that to get a cheap Lithium pack, you should get a
cheap BMS. Some people argue that you don't need one with the Lithium
Iron Phosphate cells that we would be getting. A BMS definitely isn't
critical to safety like it is for standard Lithium cells. Most of us
believe that a BMS to take care of your pack is worth the cost to
extend the lifetime of the batteries, though.

I know there's a few electrical people on the list talking about
making a Lithium BMS (myself included). I'm spending all of my
project/spare time on the U of MN solar car project right now, though,
and that probably won't change for a few months. I don't know how much
free time the others have.

Good luck!
-Morgan LaMoore

On Jan 16, 2008 10:46 AM, SteveS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been on this list only a few weeks, but I've seen  a lot of
> discussion on Lithium batteries. It seems there are everywhere but
> nowhere. So, who actually sells these things in reasonable quantities? I
> know some of the high-performance guys have them, but who is selling to
> the general public? Who has actually purchased a set and used them? I
> really would like to get some positive answers because I'd like to use them.
>
> - SteveS
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[SteveS-5]

Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> I don't think that anyone has yet purchased an affordable set of
> Lithium batteries for a full EV. Just these past few months we've been
> talking about new, cheaper manufacturers, though.
>  
Actually I didn't mention affordable; though of course that is
important. I would just like to narrow my focus down to companies that
are actually delivering product. I'm looking at an EM too, so it is a
little more affordable. The weight issue is even more important. I've
been building up a spreadsheet to compare options. So far ($ is  for 2KW
system) I have not personally checked out all of the actual availability
and prices; they were gleaned from web sites and postings.

Headway - cheapest, but available?  - $1250
A123 -available, but very expensive (looking at the experimenter
packs)   - $4750
Thundersky - next cheapest, but evidently not reliable - $1515
Dewalt packs (A123) - available, can either be broken apart or kept as
is - $3115
K2 - prices seem good, pre-built packs, but available? - $2430 (using packs)
Valence - available, expensive, but have built-in BMS - $2500
Nilar (not Lithium) - pre-built packs, available? - $2315

I'd love to hear comments, corrections, additions

- Steve

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On Jan 16, 2008 9:19 PM, SteveS <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Headway - cheapest, but available?  - $1250
> A123 -available, but very expensive (looking at the experimenter
> packs)   - $4750
> Thundersky - next cheapest, but evidently not reliable - $1515
> Dewalt packs (A123) - available, can either be broken apart or kept as
> is - $3115
> K2 - prices seem good, pre-built packs, but available? - $2430 (using packs)
> Valence - available, expensive, but have built-in BMS - $2500
> Nilar (not Lithium) - pre-built packs, available? - $2315

Add YESA and PHET, both available with BMS. Theres something called
LiFeBatt as well.

-kert

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[Metric Mind]

Kaido Kert wrote:

> Add YESA and PHET, both available with BMS. Theres something called
> LiFeBatt as well.
>
> -kert

Unless PHET already developed something else, at least what they have
demonstrated on EVS23 in December is not a BMS. It was a cell
protection module with visual indication of alarm condition.
*You* have to take care of that condition, system just makes you
aware of its presence. I don't know much details, I think system can
just unplug the charger for you. Check with PHET.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

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On Jan 17, 2008 1:54 AM, Metric Mind <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Kaido Kert wrote:
>
> > Add YESA and PHET, both available with BMS. Theres something called
> > LiFeBatt as well.
> >
> > -kert
>
> Unless PHET already developed something else, at least what they have
> demonstrated on EVS23 in December is not a BMS. It was a cell

I dont have first-hand info, but there is a fairly in-depth overview here:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2579-skinny-phet-lifepo4-cells-and-packs
http://cycle9.com/Blog/files/LiFePO4Intro.php

A quote:
all PHET packs for EV use are designed around their prismatic 18650
cells (at least, that's the only thing they've recommended and said
they will warrantee for EV). These cells are 3.2V 1.2AH, slightly
larger than an AA battery. To build up larger packs, they place them
into 3.2V strings, each with a voltage balancing board, and then for
higher voltage, place these strings together using a battery
management board.

It sounds like it a bit more than cell protection only.

/kert

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[ProEV]

Hi Steve,

Kokam lithium polymer. Large format. Excellent energy density. Good power
density. Last I heard around $3,200 for 2kW-hrs bare cells.
http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf

Cliff
www.ProEV.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "SteveS" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries availability

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> I don't think that anyone has yet purchased an affordable set of
>> Lithium batteries for a full EV. Just these past few months we've been
>> talking about new, cheaper manufacturers, though.
>>
> Actually I didn't mention affordable; though of course that is
> important. I would just like to narrow my focus down to companies that
> are actually delivering product. I'm looking at an EM too, so it is a
> little more affordable. The weight issue is even more important. I've
> been building up a spreadsheet to compare options. So far ($ is  for 2KW
> system) I have not personally checked out all of the actual availability
> and prices; they were gleaned from web sites and postings.
>
> Headway - cheapest, but available?  - $1250
> A123 -available, but very expensive (looking at the experimenter
> packs)   - $4750
> Thundersky - next cheapest, but evidently not reliable - $1515
> Dewalt packs (A123) - available, can either be broken apart or kept as
> is - $3115
> K2 - prices seem good, pre-built packs, but available? - $2430 (using
> packs)
> Valence - available, expensive, but have built-in BMS - $2500
> Nilar (not Lithium) - pre-built packs, available? - $2315
>
> I'd love to hear comments, corrections, additions
>
> - Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Ian Hooper-2]

A few comments:

- My Thundersky pack cost US$0.63/Wh (~$1240 for 2kW) including  
freight, customs (10% in Oz), GST (another 10%) and delivery to my  
door through evpower.com.au, who I believe are in partnership with  
Everspring in HK. So the price direct from Everspring must be under  
$1K for 2kW! Still the cheapest way to get LiFePO4 I've come across by  
a fair margin. (But only time will tell as to the quality/reliability..)

- I think someone mentioned PHET already, last figured I heard put the  
bare cells at about $1350 for 2kW so not bad value.

- Headway are promising and available but I haven't heard of any  
independent testing yet.. DanF posted some sample cells to me the  
other day, I'll keep the list posted on how they go on the testbench.

- A123.. for a while they were Untouchable but they may have missed  
the boat now. Based on my testing, the K2 power cells are a worthy  
substitute and are so much cheaper if you buy direct from the factory  
(DLG in China).

We still need a good, cheap way to parallel up the small commodity  
cells though.. From what I've seen all of the companies which build  
packs from small cells seem to be charging quite a bit for the  
packaging.. e.g the PHET ones are about $50 on top of the bare cells  
(and you'd typically run 40-50 in an average conversion!)

Just my 2c :)

-Ian

On 17/01/2008, at 5:32 AM, Kaido Kert wrote:

> On Jan 16, 2008 9:19 PM, SteveS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Headway - cheapest, but available?  - $1250
>> A123 -available, but very expensive (looking at the experimenter
>> packs)   - $4750
>> Thundersky - next cheapest, but evidently not reliable - $1515
>> Dewalt packs (A123) - available, can either be broken apart or kept  
>> as
>> is - $3115
>> K2 - prices seem good, pre-built packs, but available? - $2430  
>> (using packs)
>> Valence - available, expensive, but have built-in BMS - $2500
>> Nilar (not Lithium) - pre-built packs, available? - $2315
>
> Add YESA and PHET, both available with BMS. Theres something called
> LiFeBatt as well.
>
> -kert
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Chuck Homic]

It's all good information, but I'm just curious.  Who started measuring
the price of  lithium cells in dollars per 2 KWh? :) :)

Anywho, as of last month, ThunderSky is around $0.75/Wh list price (not
including shipping or import).  They claim an increase in the price of
lithium, and falling value of the US dollar.

At any rate, if I were to go lithium today, TS would be my bet.  (I
won't.  I'm going lead for now.)  They do have the lowest price, and a
90Ah cell gives me a better feeling than 90 1Ah cells.  I would just
want an off-the-shelf BMS that doesn't eliminate the economy of going
with TS to begin with.  (Victor?)

Ian Hooper wrote:

> A few comments:
>
> - My Thundersky pack cost US$0.63/Wh (~$1240 for 2kW) including  
> freight, customs (10% in Oz), GST (another 10%) and delivery to my  
> door through evpower.com.au, who I believe are in partnership with  
> Everspring in HK. So the price direct from Everspring must be under  
> $1K for 2kW! Still the cheapest way to get LiFePO4 I've come across by  
> a fair margin. (But only time will tell as to the quality/reliability..)
>
> - I think someone mentioned PHET already, last figured I heard put the  
> bare cells at about $1350 for 2kW so not bad value.
>
> - Headway are promising and available but I haven't heard of any  
> independent testing yet.. DanF posted some sample cells to me the  
> other day, I'll keep the list posted on how they go on the testbench.
>
> - A123.. for a while they were Untouchable but they may have missed  
> the boat now. Based on my testing, the K2 power cells are a worthy  
> substitute and are so much cheaper if you buy direct from the factory  
> (DLG in China).
>
> We still need a good, cheap way to parallel up the small commodity  
> cells though.. From what I've seen all of the companies which build  
> packs from small cells seem to be charging quite a bit for the  
> packaging.. e.g the PHET ones are about $50 on top of the bare cells  
> (and you'd typically run 40-50 in an average conversion!)
>  

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[Ian Hooper-2]

Actually just after sending that email I went and checked TS's  
website, looks like they've had a 25% price hike since I bought! Ouch.  
Headway might be the cheapest after all, but there's still the problem  
of parelleling the cells.

For BMS, I'm using the one from evpower.com.au FYI.

On 18/01/2008, at 1:27 AM, Chuck Homic wrote:

> It's all good information, but I'm just curious.  Who started  
> measuring
> the price of  lithium cells in dollars per 2 KWh? :) :)
>
> Anywho, as of last month, ThunderSky is around $0.75/Wh list price  
> (not
> including shipping or import).  They claim an increase in the price of
> lithium, and falling value of the US dollar.
>
> At any rate, if I were to go lithium today, TS would be my bet.  (I
> won't.  I'm going lead for now.)  They do have the lowest price, and a
> 90Ah cell gives me a better feeling than 90 1Ah cells.  I would just
> want an off-the-shelf BMS that doesn't eliminate the economy of going
> with TS to begin with.  (Victor?)
>
> Ian Hooper wrote:
>> A few comments:
>>
>> - My Thundersky pack cost US$0.63/Wh (~$1240 for 2kW) including
>> freight, customs (10% in Oz), GST (another 10%) and delivery to my
>> door through evpower.com.au, who I believe are in partnership with
>> Everspring in HK. So the price direct from Everspring must be under
>> $1K for 2kW! Still the cheapest way to get LiFePO4 I've come across  
>> by
>> a fair margin. (But only time will tell as to the quality/
>> reliability..)
>>
>> - I think someone mentioned PHET already, last figured I heard put  
>> the
>> bare cells at about $1350 for 2kW so not bad value.
>>
>> - Headway are promising and available but I haven't heard of any
>> independent testing yet.. DanF posted some sample cells to me the
>> other day, I'll keep the list posted on how they go on the testbench.
>>
>> - A123.. for a while they were Untouchable but they may have missed
>> the boat now. Based on my testing, the K2 power cells are a worthy
>> substitute and are so much cheaper if you buy direct from the factory
>> (DLG in China).
>>
>> We still need a good, cheap way to parallel up the small commodity
>> cells though.. From what I've seen all of the companies which build
>> packs from small cells seem to be charging quite a bit for the
>> packaging.. e.g the PHET ones are about $50 on top of the bare cells
>> (and you'd typically run 40-50 in an average conversion!)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Marty Hewes]

Speaking of battery availability, I expect to be spending most of April in
Hong Kong and China, we're going over for the Hong Kong Electronics show and
the Canton Fair (3 million sq. ft. of suppliers of everything imaginable, my
feet hurt just thinking about it).  Although I'm no battery expert, I might
be able to gather some information from, or visit the facilities of a
battery/motor/controller supplier or two.

If we want to put together a list of most promising contacts, I'll see what
I can do while I'm there.

Marty


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[Metric Mind]

Kaido Kert wrote:

> I dont have first-hand info, but there is a fairly in-depth overview here:
> http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2579-skinny-phet-lifepo4-cells-and-packs
> http://cycle9.com/Blog/files/LiFePO4Intro.php
>
> A quote:
> all PHET packs for EV use are designed around their prismatic 18650
> cells (at least, that's the only thing they've recommended and said
> they will warrantee for EV). These cells are 3.2V 1.2AH, slightly
> larger than an AA battery. To build up larger packs, they place them
> into 3.2V strings, each with a voltage balancing board, and then for
> higher voltage, place these strings together using a battery
> management board.
>
> It sounds like it a bit more than cell protection only.
>
> /kert

As I said, they well might have something but I'd imagine they would
want to brag about it on EVS23. Yet, it was not demonstrated there,
I stood by their table holding their cells with BMS boards attached
in my hands.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

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[SteveS-5]

Jeremiah Rutman wrote:
> steve
> pls consider redacting the table of li ion prices at
> http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/Batteries/LithiumIon with your info
> I try to keep it up to date but so far have had no help from list
> members; if we work together we can keep on top of it better
> thanks
> jeremy
Fantastic! I was wondering why no one had done this. I should have known
it was out there. I'll add what I can. Really nice!

- Steve

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[Dan Frederiksen-2]

SteveS skrev:
> Jeremiah Rutman wrote:
>  
>> steve
>> pls consider redacting the table of li ion prices at
>> http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/Batteries/LithiumIon 
>>    
> Fantastic! I was wondering why no one had done this. I should have known
> it was out there. I'll add what I can. Really nice!
>  

yes very nice table although I can't find where Rutman actually posted
this message in the EVDL. I take it it was before I joined or off list.
anyway there are some minor mistakes here and there, I'll see if I get
the time. the voltages for the lifepo cells are mostly written as 3.7
but it's 3.2. that has probably influenced the cost too.
and K2 _is_ a reseller of DLG. both K2 and DLG confirmed the cooperation
although the exact nature of it is unclear. John Wayland insists that K2
has some sort of factory on US soil but  haven't yet heard how he knows
this.
Same with LiFeBatt who resell PSI corp batteries which are relatively
interesting if not for their nasty price especially when passed through
lifebatt's long fingered hands (2½x the cost of headway per wh)

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[Idgit]

Kokams will soon be down to $1.25-1.30/WH, at least the ones made in the USA.

[shred]

How is this for a price.
"Our best price of 48V/100Ah polymer pack is USD2730.00/pc, based on 6 pcs, FOB Shenzhen, T/T or L/C payment, the delivery date is within 35 days."
"our quotation includes BMS, not the compatible charger.
Our best price of 48V battery charger is USD105.00/pc
from here---  
http://gbp.en.alibaba.com:80/product/50015626/50084906/Li_ion_EV_Battery_Packs.html

Is that not $.58 a watt?
Neal

SteveS-5 wrote:

I've been on this list only a few weeks, but I've seen  a lot of
discussion on Lithium batteries. It seems there are everywhere but
nowhere. So, who actually sells these things in reasonable quantities? I
know some of the high-performance guys have them, but who is selling to
the general public? Who has actually purchased a set and used them? I
really would like to get some positive answers because I'd like to use them.

- SteveS

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[Dan Frederiksen-2]

Idgit wrote:
> Kokams will soon be down to $1.25-1.30/WH, at least the ones made in the USA.
>  


still much too expensive

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[Dan Frederiksen-2]

shred wrote:
> "Our best price of 48V/100Ah polymer pack is USD2730.00/pc, based on 6 pcs,
> FOB Shenzhen, T/T or L/C payment, the delivery date is within 35 days."
> Is that not $.58 a watt?
>
>  

yep, that's not bad. just remember to get the pack so it has enough
current capability for your use and also be aware that it's not the
LiFePO4 type of lithium which means it's life span might be around half.
you can ask for a spec sheet with cycle life

Dan

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[Morgan LaMoore]

Wow, that's a great price! We've seen ones a few cents less per
watt-hour, but that's without a BMS or packaging!

I would recommend asking them whether the BMS can handle multiple
modules in series; they might be using relatively low-voltage parts
that couldn't handle a series connection.

Also, check out the continuous and peak current draw.

If they check out (and you can afford it), I'd say go for it! Those
prices are great!

-Morgan LaMoore

On Jan 26, 2008 10:04 AM, shred <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> How is this for a price.
> "Our best price of 48V/100Ah polymer pack is USD2730.00/pc, based on 6 pcs,
> FOB Shenzhen, T/T or L/C payment, the delivery date is within 35 days."
> "our quotation includes BMS, not the compatible charger.
> Our best price of 48V battery charger is USD105.00/pc
> from here---
> http://gbp.en.alibaba.com:80/product/50015626/50084906/Li_ion_EV_Battery_Packs.html
>
> Is that not $.58 a watt?
> Neal
>
>
>
>
> SteveS-5 wrote:
> >
> > I've been on this list only a few weeks, but I've seen  a lot of
> > discussion on Lithium batteries. It seems there are everywhere but
> > nowhere. So, who actually sells these things in reasonable quantities? I
> > know some of the high-performance guys have them, but who is selling to
> > the general public? Who has actually purchased a set and used them? I
> > really would like to get some positive answers because I'd like to use
> > them.
> >
> > - SteveS
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Lithium-batteries-availability-tp14940235p15109272.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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