Performance vs temperature

[David Sharpe]

I have noiced my EV requires much less energy to run in hot weather. Do we have predictors for the following that I can think of:
Reduced Effect altered by temperature
Air resistance vs air mass density
Tyre rolling resistance
Increased by temperature
Battery electrochemistry
Motor copper losses (lower air mass flow will make motor run hotter)
David Sharpe
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[Bob Rice-2]

  Hi Dave an' All;

   It's the Godamn BATTERIES! Yes I notice a dramatic drop when the car is
COLD, as it has been living OUTSIDE the last few nights, temps in the 30's
at nite! I THINK there is a published scale of how much power loss ya get vs
temps? So ya can figure THIS one out?Car is sluggish, I mean MORE than
normal, when I make a run. When I was commuting my 50 mile RT I was ether
driving, or charging, so batteries stayed warm. In Canada in the cold north
,the guyz up there insulate the batteries, Or MN or Montana, where it can
stay below zero for DAZE!With NO insulation, ya may as well stick with yur
Diseasel or (gasp!) gas rig! You MIGHT get 5 miles?I didn't insulate the
badd-eries as it does get HOT in the summer in Courupticut, in the summer!
Oh, not like AZ So. Cal. or Fla! Buit I have just left the car unplugged, to
cool them down. Of course we prey for better batteries as it's been as much
batteries as politics that has held EV's off the roads!You DID see WKtEC?
Right?Waiting to see how well the latest Chinese offerings, or IF A123 can
come down to affordable prices?

    BTE Mike's S-10 I built the battery boxes so you could put 1" of
styro-foam around the batteries to TRY to keep things a bit warmer. THEN you
can take it out for our Tropical CT weather.First one I've tried this., I
just have lived with shitty ramge in the winter.BTW the motor LOVES the cool
weather!And the controller, too.

     Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sharpe" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature

>I have noiced my EV requires much less energy to run in hot weather. Do we
>have predictors for the following that I can think of:
> Reduced Effect altered by temperature
> Air resistance vs air mass density
> Tyre rolling resistance
> Increased by temperature
> Battery electrochemistry
> Motor copper losses (lower air mass flow will make motor run hotter)
> David Sharpe
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[SLPinfo.org]

Bob,

Re:  not insulating because of heat in the summer

Remember that insulation works in both directions.  In your house, extra
insulation in your attic keeps the heat in during the winter, but it also
keeps heat out during the summer (it can lower both your heating and your
cooling bills).  Insulating your battery boxes can do the same thing.  You
can add some "flow through" ventilation as Roland and others have suggested
if you're really concerned about heat generated by the batteries themselves
in the summer.  It will also dissipate any gases generated if you use
floodies.  Active ventilation during charging is of course highly desireable
to prevent H2 buildup.

- Peter Flipsen Jr
http://www.evalbum.com/1974




On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Bob Rice <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  Hi Dave an' All;
>
>   It's the Godamn BATTERIES! Yes I notice a dramatic drop when the car is
> COLD, as it has been living OUTSIDE the last few nights, temps in the 30's
> at nite! I THINK there is a published scale of how much power loss ya get
> vs
> temps? So ya can figure THIS one out?Car is sluggish, I mean MORE than
> normal, when I make a run. When I was commuting my 50 mile RT I was ether
> driving, or charging, so batteries stayed warm. In Canada in the cold north
> ,the guyz up there insulate the batteries, Or MN or Montana, where it can
> stay below zero for DAZE!With NO insulation, ya may as well stick with yur
> Diseasel or (gasp!) gas rig! You MIGHT get 5 miles?I didn't insulate the
> badd-eries as it does get HOT in the summer in Courupticut, in the summer!
> Oh, not like AZ So. Cal. or Fla! Buit I have just left the car unplugged,
> to
> cool them down. Of course we prey for better batteries as it's been as much
> batteries as politics that has held EV's off the roads!You DID see WKtEC?
> Right?Waiting to see how well the latest Chinese offerings, or IF A123 can
> come down to affordable prices?
>
>    BTE Mike's S-10 I built the battery boxes so you could put 1" of
> styro-foam around the batteries to TRY to keep things a bit warmer. THEN
> you
> can take it out for our Tropical CT weather.First one I've tried this., I
> just have lived with shitty ramge in the winter.BTW the motor LOVES the
> cool
> weather!And the controller, too.
>
>     Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Sharpe" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:43 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature
>
>
> >I have noiced my EV requires much less energy to run in hot weather. Do we
> >have predictors for the following that I can think of:
> > Reduced Effect altered by temperature
> > Air resistance vs air mass density
> > Tyre rolling resistance
> > Increased by temperature
> > Battery electrochemistry
> > Motor copper losses (lower air mass flow will make motor run hotter)
> > David Sharpe
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[Bob Rice-2]

  Oh I know all that! I'm almost counting the daze til I DUMP my led acid
pack and go Chinesy Lithium! No more Led Sleds, having to beef up suspension
and brakes, etc. Having a light quick car!NOT having to worry about how HOT
or Cold the damn batteries are TODAY? Hope there is a decent Battery
Managment System, to just plug and play?So I can do OTHER stuff.

    Seeya

    Bob, ONE of our guyz  HAS taken the Lithium plunge!
----- Original Message -----
From: "SLPinfo.org" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!

> Bob,
>
> Re:  not insulating because of heat in the summer
>
> Remember that insulation works in both directions.  In your house, extra
> insulation in your attic keeps the heat in during the winter, but it also
> keeps heat out during the summer (it can lower both your heating and your
> cooling bills).  Insulating your battery boxes can do the same thing.  You
> can add some "flow through" ventilation as Roland and others have
> suggested
> if you're really concerned about heat generated by the batteries
> themselves
> in the summer.  It will also dissipate any gases generated if you use
> floodies.  Active ventilation during charging is of course highly
> desireable
> to prevent H2 buildup.
>
> - Peter Flipsen Jr
> http://www.evalbum.com/1974
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Bob Rice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>  Hi Dave an' All;
>>
>>   It's the Godamn BATTERIES! Yes I notice a dramatic drop when the car is
>> COLD, as it has been living OUTSIDE the last few nights, temps in the
>> 30's
>> at nite! I THINK there is a published scale of how much power loss ya get
>> vs
>> temps? So ya can figure THIS one out?Car is sluggish, I mean MORE than
>> normal, when I make a run. When I was commuting my 50 mile RT I was ether
>> driving, or charging, so batteries stayed warm. In Canada in the cold
>> north
>> ,the guyz up there insulate the batteries, Or MN or Montana, where it can
>> stay below zero for DAZE!With NO insulation, ya may as well stick with
>> yur
>> Diseasel or (gasp!) gas rig! You MIGHT get 5 miles?I didn't insulate the
>> badd-eries as it does get HOT in the summer in Courupticut, in the
>> summer!
>> Oh, not like AZ So. Cal. or Fla! Buit I have just left the car unplugged,
>> to
>> cool them down. Of course we prey for better batteries as it's been as
>> much
>> batteries as politics that has held EV's off the roads!You DID see WKtEC?
>> Right?Waiting to see how well the latest Chinese offerings, or IF A123
>> can
>> come down to affordable prices?
>>
>>    BTE Mike's S-10 I built the battery boxes so you could put 1" of
>> styro-foam around the batteries to TRY to keep things a bit warmer. THEN
>> you
>> can take it out for our Tropical CT weather.First one I've tried this., I
>> just have lived with shitty ramge in the winter.BTW the motor LOVES the
>> cool
>> weather!And the controller, too.
>>
>>     Bob
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Sharpe" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:43 PM
>> Subject: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature
>>
>>
>> >I have noiced my EV requires much less energy to run in hot weather. Do
>> >we
>> >have predictors for the following that I can think of:
>> > Reduced Effect altered by temperature
>> > Air resistance vs air mass density
>> > Tyre rolling resistance
>> > Increased by temperature
>> > Battery electrochemistry
>> > Motor copper losses (lower air mass flow will make motor run hotter)
>> > David Sharpe
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
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[Morgan LaMoore]

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Bob Rice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  Oh I know all that! I'm almost counting the daze til I DUMP my led acid
> pack and go Chinesy Lithium! ...

Lithium is still affected by cold, although not as much as lead. I
still recommend that you insulate your pack with Lithium.

My plan is to have insulation with good ventilation in the summer and
just good insulation in the winter.

-Morgan LaMoore

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[Evan Tuer]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Morgan LaMoore <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Bob Rice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  Oh I know all that! I'm almost counting the daze til I DUMP my led acid
>> pack and go Chinesy Lithium! ...
>
> Lithium is still affected by cold, although not as much as lead. I
> still recommend that you insulate your pack with Lithium.

The temperature hit zero (degrees C) last night and seems likely to
stay there for a while.

I've only been using my LiFePo4 pack for a week and it was about 20
degrees warmer when I started!  Also I was away this weekend and
hadn't fully charged/balanced it.   So I was a bit nervous driving it
this morning.

But, the voltage sag isn't huge, about 3% more than usual, and the
pack had self-heated a little bit by the end of 25 miles and the
voltage had returned to normal.  Of course it will be cold again when
I go to drive home...

I have heaters ready to install, and insulation, anyway.

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[Bob Rice-2]

  Hi Evan;

   But HOW are your new Lithiums doing miliage-wise? Ya getting a few
hundred<g>? Was hoping you would be raving about a REAL useful range, like a
few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!? I can accept that ya lose a
little range in cold weather but IF you are getting SIGNIFICENTLY more, it's
OK?

     Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!

> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Morgan LaMoore <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Bob Rice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Oh I know all that! I'm almost counting the daze til I DUMP my led acid
>>> pack and go Chinesy Lithium! ...
>>
>> Lithium is still affected by cold, although not as much as lead. I
>> still recommend that you insulate your pack with Lithium.
>
> The temperature hit zero (degrees C) last night and seems likely to
> stay there for a while.
>
> I've only been using my LiFePo4 pack for a week and it was about 20
> degrees warmer when I started!  Also I was away this weekend and
> hadn't fully charged/balanced it.   So I was a bit nervous driving it
> this morning.
>
> But, the voltage sag isn't huge, about 3% more than usual, and the
> pack had self-heated a little bit by the end of 25 miles and the
> voltage had returned to normal.  Of course it will be cold again when
> I go to drive home...
>
> I have heaters ready to install, and insulation, anyway.
>
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[David Nelson-5]

> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?

I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Nelson" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!


>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?
>
> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
   Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty bitty
liters! Soda? OK .sorta used to 2 liter Cokes, etc.

> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
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[Jeff Shanab]

I can't remember what comedian pointed out that we Americans are a
strange lot.\

"We will go to war over $4/gallon of gas but go thru the drive-thru at
starbucks and happily pay > $30/gal for coffee."
     or something to that effect.

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Nelson" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
>
>
>>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?
>>
>> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
>   Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty
> bitty liters! Soda? OK .sorta used to 2 liter Cokes, etc.
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!


>I can't remember what comedian pointed out that we Americans are a
> strange lot.\
>
> "We will go to war over $4/gallon of gas but go thru the drive-thru at
> starbucks and happily pay > $30/gal for coffee."
>     or something to that effect.

   Ya didn't mention bottled water. THAT scam! It goes for the same price,
or more, than other soft drinks, etc. Maybe ya MIGHT need to drink it in
Trashcanistan, where tap water IF there is any, wouldn't be clean enough to
prevent disease? But OUR tap water in "developed" countries is good
'enuf??!!On a Gal. basis its MORE thasn gas! JUST now, in Corrupticut they
require a 5 sense a bottle deposit, to help the state budget, AND to clean
up the environment? Howbout our  distilled water jugs, too?WHAT?! Yur NOT
watering your badd-eries with pure distilled water? STILL cheaper than gas
in one gal. jugs!

     Seeya

     Bob

>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Nelson" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
>>
>>
>>>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?
>>>
>>> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
>>   Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty
>> bitty liters! Soda? OK .sorta used to 2 liter Cokes, etc.
>> --
>> David D. Nelson
>> http://evalbum.com/1328
>>
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>
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[Metric Mind]

Bob Rice wrote:

>>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?

That's a new one... Whatsa difference between wimpy km and normal one?
I'd like to know.

>> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
>    Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty bitty
> liters!

Err, except for Americans, EVERYBODY ELSE wants to (and does) count in
liters.

But hey, it's a free country, welcome to keep pretending that the rest
of the world does not exist.

Victor

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