Prius - BEV Symbiosis

[Seth Rothenberg]

I FIGURED OUT HOW TO GET HOME!

I am (STILL) *ALMOST* finished with my first EV.
It won't have enough power to go to  work AND home.
And I still might not get permission to plug in at work....

BUT!

I could drive TO work in my EV, get a RIDE home,
And the next day, I could drive to work in my PRIUS.

I found the power inverter that I was missing.
I can charge the EV slowly all day - ala  PriUPS.
(I think I figured out how to lock the Prius while it is ON :-)

Drive the Prius home, get a ride TO work in the AM.
EV Should have no trouble getting home now that I have a full charge...

(If I plan it right, my WIFE drives PAST my office
one - two days a month, get my ride and get 1/2 hour
to ask her about her week :-)

ACTUALLY, revise that!


EV to work;                1
Rideshare home;
Prius to work;            2
Charge all day
EV home;
Charge all night
EV to work;                  3
Charge all day
EV Home
Rideshare to work           4
Prius home.

Then I explain the system to my boss,
and I can justify a 4-day workweek!




Of course MY PROBLEM is that on this Glorious
Spring Day, I am tryping on the computer
instead of building my EV.


Seth
Trying to slow charge...

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[David Roden]

On 25 Oct 2009 at 14:08, Seth Rothenberg wrote:

> I can charge the EV slowly all day - ala  PriUPS.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you're going to burn gasoline to
charge the EV with the Prius, wouldn't it be more efficient (and a whole lot
less hassle) to just drive the Prius to and from work, and use the EV for
evening and weekend errands where its range is sufficient?

<scratches head>

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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[Lee Hart]

Seth Rothenberg wrote:
>> I can charge the EV slowly all day - ala  PriUPS.

David Roden wrote:
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you're going to burn gasoline to
> charge the EV with the Prius, wouldn't it be more efficient (and a whole lot
> less hassle) to just drive the Prius to and from work, and use the EV for
> evening and weekend errands where its range is sufficient?

I'm not sure of his situation, but I know of one EVer that used a
similar technique to get his EV to a car show that was at the limits of
his range. He drove the EV, and a friend drove his Prius. They parked
next to each other at the car show. He used an inverter to produce AC
from the Prius 12v system. This AC ran his charger (just a bad boy), to
get enough charge back into the EV so he could drive it home after the show.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[Seth Rothenberg]

>> Maybe I'm missing something here,

My expected range is 50.
My R.T. is 60.

So the margin that needs to charge is small.

and I want to show off the EV.

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[Dennis Miles-2]

New comment at end.

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> >> I can charge the EV slowly all day - ala  PriUPS.
>
> David Roden wrote:
> > Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you're going to burn gasoline to
> > charge the EV with the Prius, wouldn't it be more efficient (and a whole
> lot
> > less hassle) to just drive the Prius to and from work, and use the EV for
> > evening and weekend errands where its range is sufficient?
>
> I'm not sure of his situation, but I know of one EVer that used a
> similar technique to get his EV to a car show that was at the limits of
> his range. He drove the EV, and a friend drove his Prius. They parked
> next to each other at the car show. He used an inverter to produce AC
> from the Prius 12v system. This AC ran his charger (just a bad boy), to
> get enough charge back into the EV so he could drive it home after the
> show.
> --
> Lee A. Hart             | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N           | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377        | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net  | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> ==========Seth, that seems a complex solution to me!=========
>

Seth, Seriously? You are considering tying up two vehicles and depending
upon friends to drive you 1/3 rd of the time??   As your daily commute to
work?

Sorry, but I am a strong believer in "Simplification."  In this and other
complex solutions, there are far too many opportunities for dysfunction.

In my humble opinion you have several much more reasonable alternative
solutions;

Best, talk to your employer about the possibility of your being allowed to
plug-in at work, lots of good points to be made about Green, progressive,
Global Warming, and offer to pay a reasonable fee for the use of their
electricity, (Like the price of a gallon of gasoline per day?)

Second, after they flatly refuse, check with nearby business or
residences, regarding the possibility of "Renting" a parking space with
electrical outlet access, (Within range of a 50 ft. cord!). Consider the
average month has less than 25 work days. so suggest $50 as $2 daily should
pay for your electric usage ($20 /month) and give them a nice profit with NO
WORK on their part. (That is a BARGAIN for both of you !)

Thirdly, if nothing else will work out, Buy a Diesel Generator powerful
enough to supply your charger, and take it to work with you. ( I had a 3kw
unit that ran 6 hours on 2 gallons of fuel..)
then add a small trailer and a hitch to your EV or use a hang on the hitch
platform with no wheels, (like they sell in "Tractor supply.")  This way you
eliminate the wear on your Prius !
I would use one of the tiny trailers from "Harbor Freight," and make an open
bottomed shell cover shaped like a "Teardrop" trailer to be stylish and
weather protective. Unless you have room on board...

I hate complicated commutes so I do indeed hope som alternative works out
for you.

Regards,
         Dennis Miles   <Director>
     Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
  In Lakeland, Florida Call [863] 289-0690

Training the Tech/mechs to build, repair, and service Today's and Tomorrow's
Electric Cars !
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[Dennis Miles-2]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Seth Rothenberg <[hidden email]>wrote:

> >> Maybe I'm missing something here,
>
> My expected range is 50.
> My R.T. is 60.
>
> So the margin that needs to charge is small.
>
> and I want to show off the EV.
>
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> ===============That does change the picture.=======================

Of course until you try it you don't know if it will make the trip or not,
perhaps staying
on slower roads can extent the range the 16% you might be short. Just
driving 5 mph slower than traffic on a highway may give you 10% greater
range.
Again Regards
         Dennis Miles   <Director>
     Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
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[Roger Heuckeroth]

Seth,

If your employer doesn't put a plug in, here's another idea.  You  
could get one of those small 2000 Watt Honda Camping Inverter  
Generators.  Just charge for an hour or two.  They are super quiet and  
fuel efficient.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail§ion=P2GG&modelname=EU2000i&modelid=EU2000IAN

Roger

On Oct 25, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Seth Rothenberg wrote:

>>> Maybe I'm missing something here,
>
> My expected range is 50.
> My R.T. is 60.
>
> So the margin that needs to charge is small.
>
> and I want to show off the EV.
>
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[David Roden]

On 26 Oct 2009 at 10:47, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:

> Honda Camping Inverter  Generators.  

Remember that his purpose is to promote his EV to other people.  I'm not so
sure this is the best way.

The emissions of these small generators are lower than they used to be, but
still appreciably higher than a well-tuned recent ICEV driving a similar
distance.  Someone's likely to point this out.

Granted there are other reasons besides "greenness" to drive and own an EV,
but people still think of them as cleaner than ICEs, and I think it's fairly
important not to change that.  We already have enough troube with some folks
thinking that EVs just move pollution to the powerplant (partly, but not as
much as the detractors say).  A genset just puts that issue right out in
plain sight, and I don't think it's very good EV promotion - especially when
it really does pollute >more< than an ICEV.

I guess the ideal would be to set up a solar charging shed at the workplace.
 That's probably impractical, but it'd be a lot better PR than a genset, or
even leaving a Prius on and running part or all of the day.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[Seth Rothenberg]

The question of relying on others 1/3 of the time...
the cost of the toll is $12/day.  Gas is a fraction of this.

I already carpool on days when one car is in the shop,
or when I don't want to hassle with traffic.

There are a few people who drive right past my house
every day.



A camping generator configured to run veggie be  oil
would be possibly worth considering.

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[Bob Rice-2]

   Hi Seth an' EVerybody;

   The old Range Buggaboo, again? A simple PLUG where it could be accessed?
So SIMPLE, but can be an issue with the Least Coast's larcenous electric
rates! I.E. be ready to PAY to plug! Only fair, though? As somebody pointed
out, for now, find a nearby biz that will let you plug in, of course, for
pay.In dream mode parking lots that HAVE outlets??. In New Haven CT you can
park at the Neon Garage and the juice if free, but the parking isn't. Donnow
as I haven't availed myself of their services. Have little use for New Haven
in general.But when I did, went to the RR parking lot which I fixed up
outlets. BTW they are STILL there!

     Good Luck

     Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Prius - BEV Symbiosis

> On 26 Oct 2009 at 10:47, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>
>> Honda Camping Inverter  Generators.
>
> Remember that his purpose is to promote his EV to other people.  I'm not
> so
> sure this is the best way.
>
> The emissions of these small generators are lower than they used to be,
> but
> still appreciably higher than a well-tuned recent ICEV driving a similar
> distance.  Someone's likely to point this out.
>
> Granted there are other reasons besides "greenness" to drive and own an
> EV,
> but people still think of them as cleaner than ICEs, and I think it's
> fairly
> important not to change that.  We already have enough troube with some
> folks
> thinking that EVs just move pollution to the powerplant (partly, but not
> as
> much as the detractors say).  A genset just puts that issue right out in
> plain sight, and I don't think it's very good EV promotion - especially
> when
> it really does pollute >more< than an ICEV.
>
> I guess the ideal would be to set up a solar charging shed at the
> workplace.
> That's probably impractical, but it'd be a lot better PR than a genset, or
> even leaving a Prius on and running part or all of the day.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Rothenberg" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Prius - BEV Symbiosis


> The question of relying on others 1/3 of the time...
> the cost of the toll is $12/day.  Gas is a fraction of this.

   Oh I almost forgot! IN the NYC area TOLLS are FAR more than gas!Trains
and busses aren't cheap, ether!Makes Corrupticut seem a cheap place to live?
I KNOW the ways to dodge MOST tolls in the NYC area, but in NJ, yur f**ked!

> I already carpool on days when one car is in the shop,
> or when I don't want to hassle with traffic.

  WHY aren't car pools more popular??


> There are a few people who drive right past my house
> every day.
>
   And would PROBABLY wouldn't stop? The Private Car thing?>
>
> A camping generator configured to run veggie be  oil
> would be possibly worth considering.

>  But it would be a Diseasel; weight more than ME and noisy?Costly, too?

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[Evan Tuer]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Seth Rothenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Maybe I'm missing something here,
>
> My expected range is 50.
> My R.T. is 60.
>
> So the margin that needs to charge is small.
>
> and I want to show off the EV.

The answer seems simple:  Build an EV with (at least) 60 miles range,
then it will be worth showing off ;)

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[Roger Heuckeroth]

On Oct 26, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Evan Tuer wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Seth Rothenberg  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Maybe I'm missing something here,
>>
>> My expected range is 50.
>> My R.T. is 60.
>>
>> So the margin that needs to charge is small.
>>
>> and I want to show off the EV.
>
> The answer seems simple:  Build an EV with (at least) 60 miles range,
> then it will be worth showing off ;)

Actually, makes more sense to add more cells to your battery instead  
of adding a generator.  Probably cheaper and a whole lot more  
convenient.
 

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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 04:23:22PM +0000, Evan Tuer wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Seth Rothenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> Maybe I'm missing something here,
> >
> > My expected range is 50.
> > My R.T. is 60.
>
> The answer seems simple:  Build an EV with (at least) 60 miles range,
> then it will be worth showing off ;)

Are we talking about this:
http://www.evalbum.com/729
?

I thought Seth had a ThunderSky pack.  This discussion seems to imply
lead.

I selected my TS pack to give me a "for sure" range of 80 miles and
ended up with well over 100 miles.  Maybe Seth will be pleasantly
surprised.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  681 days  6 hours 15 minutes

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[Seth Rothenberg]

The answers just keep getting better!

>> The answer seems simple:  Build an EV with (at least) 60 miles range,
>> then it will be worth showing off ;)

good idea!

> I selected my TS pack to give me a "for sure" range of 80 miles and
> ended up with well over 100 miles.  Maybe Seth will be pleasantly
> surprised.

Willie, I hope so!   I have heard good things on the TS mailing list...


>>>Are we talking about this:
>>>http://www.evalbum.com/729?

Sorry, no...I have not updated the album yet.

I am using the old Saturn drivetrain in my dead Camry.
I have 50 * 100 Ah  TS cells.

One of these days I'll get around to updating the album.

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[Willie McKemie-3]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 03:03:46PM -0400, Seth Rothenberg wrote:

> I am using the old Saturn drivetrain in my dead Camry.
> I have 50 * 100 Ah  TS cells.

That does look like only 40-50 miles.  And you're looking for 60 miles.
I think you need more pooh.  160ah cells.  But that train has already
left.  That is, you have the 100ah cells in hand.  15 or 20 more 100ah
cells.  But your controller and charger probably wouldn't like that.
And upgrading your BMS might be prohibitively costly.

The $2K or $3K more that a larger pack would have cost compares
favorably with the machinations you are now considering.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  681 days  8 hours 38 minutes

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[Evan Tuer]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Seth Rothenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The answers just keep getting better!
>
>>> The answer seems simple:  Build an EV with (at least) 60 miles range,
>>> then it will be worth showing off ;)
>
> good idea!
>

> I am using the old Saturn drivetrain in my dead Camry.
> I have 50 * 100 Ah  TS cells.

16kWh?  That's not a huge amount, especially for a big car like that.
You'll be taking more than 1C at cruise as well, most likely...

To go 80 miles (reasonably 60) with that pack you'd need to get no
worse than 200Wh/mile.  You could probably do that with a small, well
smoothed car, with an efficient drive.  Are there any old Solectria
Forces or suchlike lying around with dead batteries?   You could
possibly get something like that more cheaply than adding 20% to your
pack, or perhaps for a similar cost to finishing your conversion..

Sorry, stating the obvious today ;)

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[Roger Heuckeroth]

On Oct 26, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Evan Tuer wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Seth Rothenberg  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The answers just keep getting better!
>>
>>>> The answer seems simple:  Build an EV with (at least) 60 miles  
>>>> range,
>>>> then it will be worth showing off ;)
>>
>> good idea!
>>
>
>> I am using the old Saturn drivetrain in my dead Camry.
>> I have 50 * 100 Ah  TS cells.
>
> 16kWh?  That's not a huge amount, especially for a big car like that.
> You'll be taking more than 1C at cruise as well, most likely...
>
> To go 80 miles (reasonably 60) with that pack you'd need to get no
> worse than 200Wh/mile.  You could probably do that with a small, well
> smoothed car, with an efficient drive.  Are there any old Solectria
> Forces or suchlike lying around with dead batteries?   You could
> possibly get something like that more cheaply than adding 20% to your
> pack, or perhaps for a similar cost to finishing your conversion..
>
> Sorry, stating the obvious today ;)

I think Seth is pretty far along and committed to going with the Camry.

Seth, If your employer doesn't allow you to plug in at work, are there  
any other places nearby your employer that may allow you to plug in.  
Charging while you work is really the best solution if you can make it  
work.  But I'm sure you know that :)

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[Seth Rothenberg]

Charging at work with employer

1. For an EV exposition, they could run an extension cord.
(They gave away their hand at a company picinic :-)
2. If they gave me a reserved spot in the upper parking lot....
that's the parking lot under the Right-of-Way....I could
theoretically arrange for service ON the pole.
That would not be cheap, but less than 7.5 KWh of Lifepo..
3. Charging at work without employer - there's an animal
hospital across the parking lot. Maybe they are greenish.
4. There's a gas station about a 5 minute walk.
They might do it for money, lots of people do stuff for money.
5. There's a hotel behind the gas station

6 everything is actually owned by Mack-Cali.
They might do something for money.
(Or they might branch out into electricity vending.... :-)


7. I could FINISH the Camry and sell it to someone
who works on THIS side of the Hudson Ocean,
and use the proceeds to get (downpayment on) a Tesla S.

Thanks for all the advice.
Will let you know the verdict(s)

Seth

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[olegil]

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> Seth,
>
> If your employer doesn't put a plug in, here's another idea.  You  
> could get one of those small 2000 Watt Honda Camping Inverter  
> Generators.  Just charge for an hour or two.  They are super quiet and  
> fuel efficient.
>
> http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail§ion=P2GG&modelname=EU2000i&modelid=EU2000IAN
>

Fuel efficient?

Right.
Best case is ~8kWh per gallon per their specifications (full load for 4
hours at 0.95 gallons of petrol). Say you had a 400Wh/mile conversion,
that gives you 20mpg. If you have a 200Wh/mile conversion, it's 40mpg,
but that's still really not what I would call fuel efficient when used
to charge an EV.

--
We'll initialise that PCI bridge when we get there.
http://olegil.amigaos.se/

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