Re: service businesses to care for EVs

6 messages

Re: service businesses to care for EVs

Reply Threaded

Hello-
In reply to Dennis Miles of the Electric Vehicle Training Center Inc.,
who says:
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:31:23 -0400
From: Dennis Miles <[hidden email]>
Subject: [EVDL] Ready to update your EV
hobby to a career?

"*An EV Needs service too!** *

Nearly all owner/drivers of EVs at this time
treat their EV as a hobby.
But, the next generation of owners will be
drivers who do not want to
play "Electro-mechanic" on his or her car. **

We are going to need "Service" Businesses
to care for their EVs for
owners who, probably don?t look under the
hood of their ICE either..."

I guess we are that "next generation" that Dennis speaks of, and I think
Dennis is dead-on in anticipating the need for customer service and vehicle
support after purchasing an EV. Our EV is not a hobby: it's a commuter
truck, and we generate plenty of off-the-grid electricity to power it.
After some years of research into EV's, we decided not to wait for the
big guys to develop an acceptable EV or hybrid. We've been
do-it-yourselfers on cars and household wiring for years, but felt an EV was
beyond our skill level, so we paid Electric Blue Auto to convert a Toyota
Tacoma. It's an AC system, with regular lead-acid batteries: we decided to
learn on cheaper batteries. They're Deca DP27 M batteries (26), Azure
Dynamics motor and controller, and a Zivan PFC 4000 charger.
We received the truck in June, and immediately noticed significant
jerking in 2nd and 3rd gears, when we accelerate right after shifting.( The
jerking is like when you try to drive in too high a gear for your speed, in
a gas-powered engine.) We notified Electric Blue Auto about it, who
notified both Azure Dynamics and ElectroAuto, the components distributor.
We've been working with all three parties, and have emailed five data
captures using Azure's ccShell software and our laptop hooked up to the
truck. We've made several changes to the controller with the help of a
knowledgeable and helpful ElectroAuto employee, and Electric Blue has been
out once to check out the truck.
However, after 4 months, the truck isn't running any smoother, and in
fact, has really lost power and acceleration. We knew there would be a
learning curve, and that we'd have to be actively-involved in
problem-solving and resolution. We've put a lot of time into this, and
still don't have a smoothly-running vehicle.
We are curious to hear of others' experiences, feedback re: these
components, and/or suggestions for where to go from here. You can reply on
or off list.

Donn Kuntz and Julie Boyle
[hidden email]
Gill, Colorado

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

phil galati

Re: service businesses to care for EVs

Reply Threaded

It sounds like you are getting too much of an RPM differential when shifting
Your motor is either too small or your controller can not handle the amps
your motor is calling for. Hence the bucking.

I was running a Ford ranger with an 8" warp motor and a 400 amp Curtis
controller on it. It was a dog. I first changed the rear to
4:10 to1 gears to bring the RPM range down and bring the gears up. It worked
better.

I have now changed the motor to a 9" with a 1,000 amp Zilla and have no
problems at all.

More horsepower never hurts. The only thing to watch out for is, that lead
foot will eat your batteries up quick!

Phil Galati
Trans Atlantic Electric Conversions
New Jersey

-------Original Message-------

From: Donn Kuntz
Date: 10/20/2009 9:07:56 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] service businesses to care for EVs

Hello-
In reply to Dennis Miles of the Electric Vehicle Training Center Inc.,
who says:
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:31:23 -0400
From: Dennis Miles <[hidden email]>
Subject: [EVDL] Ready to update your EV
hobby to a career?

"*An EV Needs service too!** *

Nearly all owner/drivers of EVs at this time
treat their EV as a hobby.
But, the next generation of owners will be
drivers who do not want to
play "Electro-mechanic" on his or her car. **

We are going to need "Service" Businesses
to care for their EVs for
owners who, probably don?t look under the
hood of their ICE either..."

I guess we are that "next generation" that Dennis speaks of, and I think
Dennis is dead-on in anticipating the need for customer service and vehicle
support after purchasing an EV. Our EV is not a hobby: it's a commuter
truck, and we generate plenty of off-the-grid electricity to power it.
After some years of research into EV's, we decided not to wait for the
big guys to develop an acceptable EV or hybrid. We've been
do-it-yourselfers on cars and household wiring for years, but felt an EV was
beyond our skill level, so we paid Electric Blue Auto to convert a Toyota
Tacoma. It's an AC system, with regular lead-acid batteries: we decided to
learn on cheaper batteries. They're Deca DP27 M batteries (26), Azure
Dynamics motor and controller, and a Zivan PFC 4000 charger.
We received the truck in June, and immediately noticed significant
jerking in 2nd and 3rd gears, when we accelerate right after shifting.( The
jerking is like when you try to drive in too high a gear for your speed, in
a gas-powered engine.) We notified Electric Blue Auto about it, who
notified both Azure Dynamics and ElectroAuto, the components distributor.
We've been working with all three parties, and have emailed five data
captures using Azure's ccShell software and our laptop hooked up to the
truck. We've made several changes to the controller with the help of a
knowledgeable and helpful ElectroAuto employee, and Electric Blue has been
out once to check out the truck.
However, after 4 months, the truck isn't running any smoother, and in
fact, has really lost power and acceleration. We knew there would be a
learning curve, and that we'd have to be actively-involved in
problem-solving and resolution. We've put a lot of time into this, and
still don't have a smoothly-running vehicle.
We are curious to hear of others' experiences, feedback re: these
components, and/or suggestions for where to go from here. You can reply on
or off list.

Donn Kuntz and Julie Boyle
[hidden email]
Gill, Colorado

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091102/dcca3f91/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

EVDL Administrator

Re: Bucking EV (subject change)

Reply Threaded

On 2 Nov 2009 at 22:39, phil galati wrote:

> noticed significant jerking in 2nd and 3rd gears, when we accelerate
> right after shifting.

This reminds me of an occasional problem with a small number of Solectria
drives perhaps 15 years ago. The symptom was a bucking effect, though I
think it was more usually on deceleration (regen). I'll go through some of
my old files and see if I still have anything on this.

It was always an intermittent problem when and for whom it happened, and I
don't recall that anyone ever came up with a definitive answer. I do
remember that one fairly compelling theory was that it was a problem with
the motor position / speed encoder.

But this could be a red herring. Driving an EV with a manual trans entails
a very different shifting regimen from that of driving an ICE. An induction
motor behaves somewhat more like an ICE than a series DC motor does, but you
still want to keep your RPM fairly high and not shift too soon.

Try holding it in gear until the motor RPM approaches the tach redline (if
you have one), hits the max speed you've been told to limit that gear to, or
the vehicle simply won't go any faster - whichever happens first. If that
means you're driving 45 in second gear, so be it. See if that helps.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Dennis Miles-2

Re: service businesses to care for EVs

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by phil galati

Hi Phil, Sorry to say your comment is right in line for a DC system, but
this one is not. it is a three phase AC design with a brushless motor
connected to a "Variable Frequency Drive" designed for that motor. And after
shifting to 2nd or 3rd gear if you floor the accelerator, you will feel
strong acceleration and Bu-Bu-Bu-Bump during about a 1.5 second interval
then it will continue to accelerate thru the normal rpm range. If you do
not press hard but accelerate gently, there is no bumping, just slow smooth
driving. Wayne of "Electric Blue" has been working with "Azure Dynamics" who
provided the motor and controller as a set. I am sure the problem is in the
controller (80%) or the motor (19%) or in the batteries and wiring (1%) And
I am eagerly awaiting the successful resolution of this problem.
Regards,
Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO) Electric Vehicle Technical Institute
Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:39 PM, phil galati <[hidden email]>wrote:

> It sounds like you are getting too much of an RPM differential when
> shifting
> Your motor is either too small or your controller can not handle the amps
> your motor is calling for. Hence the bucking.
> I was running a Ford ranger with an 8" warp motor and a 400 amp Curtis
> controller on it. It was a dog. I first changed the rear to
> 4:10 to1 gears to bring the RPM range down and bring the gears up. It
> worked
> better.
>
> I have now changed the motor to a 9" with a 1,000 amp Zilla and have no
> problems at all.
>
> More horsepower never hurts. The only thing to watch out for is, that lead
> foot will eat your batteries up quick!
>
> Phil Galati
> Trans Atlantic Electric Conversions
> New Jersey
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Donn Kuntz
> Date: 10/20/2009 9:07:56 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] service businesses to care for EVs
>
> Hello-
> In reply to Dennis Miles of the Electric Vehicle Training Center Inc.,
> who says:
> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:31:23 -0400
> From: Dennis Miles <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Ready to update your EV
> hobby to a career?
>
> "*An EV Needs service too!** *
>
> Nearly all owner/drivers of EVs at this time
> treat their EV as a hobby.
> But, the next generation of owners will be
> drivers who do not want to
> play "Electro-mechanic" on his or her car. **
>
> We are going to need "Service" Businesses
> to care for their EVs for
> owners who, probably don?t look under the
> hood of their ICE either..."
>
> I guess we are that "next generation" that Dennis speaks of, and I think
> Dennis is dead-on in anticipating the need for customer service and vehicle
> support after purchasing an EV. Our EV is not a hobby: it's a commuter
> truck, and we generate plenty of off-the-grid electricity to power it.
> After some years of research into EV's, we decided not to wait for the
> big guys to develop an acceptable EV or hybrid. We've been
> do-it-yourselfers on cars and household wiring for years, but felt an EV
> was
> beyond our skill level, so we paid Electric Blue Auto to convert a Toyota
> Tacoma. It's an AC system, with regular lead-acid batteries: we decided
> to
> learn on cheaper batteries. They're Deca DP27 M batteries (26), Azure
> Dynamics motor and controller, and a Zivan PFC 4000 charger.
> We received the truck in June, and immediately noticed significant
> jerking in 2nd and 3rd gears, when we accelerate right after shifting.( The
> jerking is like when you try to drive in too high a gear for your speed, in
> a gas-powered engine.) We notified Electric Blue Auto about it, who
> notified both Azure Dynamics and ElectroAuto, the components distributor.
> We've been working with all three parties, and have emailed five data
> captures using Azure's ccShell software and our laptop hooked up to the
> truck. We've made several changes to the controller with the help of a
> knowledgeable and helpful ElectroAuto employee, and Electric Blue has been
> out once to check out the truck.
> However, after 4 months, the truck isn't running any smoother, and in
> fact, has really lost power and acceleration. We knew there would be a
> learning curve, and that we'd have to be actively-involved in
> problem-solving and resolution. We've put a lot of time into this, and
> still don't have a smoothly-running vehicle.
> We are curious to hear of others' experiences, feedback re: these
> components, and/or suggestions for where to go from here. You can reply on
> or off list.
>
> Donn Kuntz and Julie Boyle
> [hidden email]
> Gill, Colorado
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091102/dcca3f91/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

Bob Rice-2

Re: service businesses to care for EVs, AC Stuff.

Reply Threaded

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] service businesses to care for EVs

> Hi Phil, Sorry to say your comment is right in line for a DC system, but
> this one is not. it is a three phase AC design with a brushless motor
> connected to a "Variable Frequency Drive" designed for that motor. And
> after
> shifting to 2nd or 3rd gear if you floor the accelerator, you will feel
> strong acceleration and Bu-Bu-Bu-Bump during about a 1.5 second interval
> then it will continue to accelerate thru the normal rpm range. If you do
> not press hard but accelerate gently, there is no bumping, just slow
> smooth
> driving. Wayne of "Electric Blue" has been working with "Azure Dynamics"
> who
> provided the motor and controller as a set. I am sure the problem is in
> the
> controller (80%) or the motor (19%) or in the batteries and wiring (1%)
> And
> I am eagerly awaiting the successful resolution of this problem.
> Regards,
> Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO) Electric Vehicle Technical Institute
> Inc.

Hi EVerybody;

As a "Driver" of AC systems, the setup he has IS going through teething
problems, obviously, although Azure SHOULD have it's shit together; After
all it IS Solectria, MAYBE without James Worden, the developer, FOUNDER of
Solectria, of the Force cars and early Sunrises.Interesting that Wayne is
working on AC systems as Wayne and I share a bit of "Stay with what WORKS",
rather than trying expensive , new stuff? IE running the car's alternater
instead of a DC to dc, cuz it CAME with the car!Seems that AC Propulsion has
it all together, albiet in the rather high end. But MAYBE Azure is trying AC
for the common Sheeple? I mean if Wayne likes it??

Years ago, Amtrak converted a number opf their AEM-7's electric locos to
AC drive. Sigh. Throwing away the glass smooth DC sep/ex drive that we all
knew and loved so well. The Early AC setup was crappy!Severe "cogging" at
start, like cheezy ,Chinezy scooters, the above fading in and out, like he
said, IF you ran like Grandma, and lost time over the road., was So So, NOT
OK! Contrary to popular belief we DO try to run as advertised, and IF you
can't get over the road, it bums out alot of hostages (RR Passengers)! It,
the loco, would get frustraited and just DIE! BOY! Does that tie stuff
up!Not knowing any French to swear at it, to TRY reserection! Alstom, the
rebuilders, much to their credit, DID do their homework, and the AC stuff
DID work as intended, including putting power BACK into the catenery,when
braking,YOU guyz call it "regen" a slick trick that was/is Acela's
domain.THIS was elegently done, almost 100 years ago on the Milwaukee Roads
DC electrification, on the Left Coast. It WORKED great! Holding freight
trains back, going DOWN the mountain, as this is as important as having
power enough to CLIMB the grade , in the first place! A beaitiful concept,
then, and now! No more Jake Brakes on trux, IF you could charge EVery time
you had to slow down yur overloaded 18 ,or MORE wheeler,too! Just a matter
of TIME and maybe 5 bux or more a gal, by appointment, diseasel fuel, before
there are Prius 18 wheelers<g>? Hell! Why not? A123, ya listening? MAYBE
before rationing, which COULD come at ANY time?

We all know a DC motor will PULL, til you tear it's heart out! Abuse it,
badly, by lugging, too high a gear, and you will be shipping it off to
Warfield Electric for a rewind! It isn't fussy as to WHAT ya use for a
controller, Knife swith, to Zilla?But an AC setup is Perfectly matched,
motor and controller, hast to be! No cheating! This is AC Power's Success
story. Hope Wayne and Azure can work it out?

Seeya

Bob, my 2 watts worth.

> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
> the
> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:39 PM, phil galati
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> It sounds like you are getting too much of an RPM differential when
>> shifting
>> Your motor is either too small or your controller can not handle the
>> amps
>> your motor is calling for. Hence the bucking.
>> I was running a Ford ranger with an 8" warp motor and a 400 amp Curtis
>> controller on it. It was a dog. I first changed the rear to
>> 4:10 to1 gears to bring the RPM range down and bring the gears up. It
>> worked
>> better.
>>
>> I have now changed the motor to a 9" with a 1,000 amp Zilla and have no
>> problems at all.
>>
>> More horsepower never hurts. The only thing to watch out for is, that
>> lead
>> foot will eat your batteries up quick!
>>
>> Phil Galati
>> Trans Atlantic Electric Conversions
>> New Jersey
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Donn Kuntz
>> Date: 10/20/2009 9:07:56 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] service businesses to care for EVs
>>
>> Hello-
>> In reply to Dennis Miles of the Electric Vehicle Training Center
>> Inc.,
>> who says:
>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:31:23 -0400
>> From: Dennis Miles <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [EVDL] Ready to update your EV
>> hobby to a career?
>>
>> "*An EV Needs service too!** *
>>
>> Nearly all owner/drivers of EVs at this
>> time
>> treat their EV as a hobby.
>> But, the next generation of owners will be
>> drivers who do not want to
>> play "Electro-mechanic" on his or her car.
>> **
>>
>> We are going to need "Service" Businesses
>> to care for their EVs for
>> owners who, probably don?t look under the
>> hood of their ICE either..."
>>
>> I guess we are that "next generation" that Dennis speaks of, and I
>> think
>> Dennis is dead-on in anticipating the need for customer service and
>> vehicle
>> support after purchasing an EV. Our EV is not a hobby: it's a commuter
>> truck, and we generate plenty of off-the-grid electricity to power it.
>> After some years of research into EV's, we decided not to wait for
>> the
>> big guys to develop an acceptable EV or hybrid. We've been
>> do-it-yourselfers on cars and household wiring for years, but felt an EV
>> was
>> beyond our skill level, so we paid Electric Blue Auto to convert a Toyota
>> Tacoma. It's an AC system, with regular lead-acid batteries: we decided
>> to
>> learn on cheaper batteries. They're Deca DP27 M batteries (26), Azure
>> Dynamics motor and controller, and a Zivan PFC 4000 charger.
>> We received the truck in June, and immediately noticed significant
>> jerking in 2nd and 3rd gears, when we accelerate right after shifting.(
>> The
>> jerking is like when you try to drive in too high a gear for your speed,
>> in
>> a gas-powered engine.) We notified Electric Blue Auto about it, who
>> notified both Azure Dynamics and ElectroAuto, the components distributor.
>> We've been working with all three parties, and have emailed five data
>> captures using Azure's ccShell software and our laptop hooked up to the
>> truck. We've made several changes to the controller with the help of a
>> knowledgeable and helpful ElectroAuto employee, and Electric Blue has
>> been
>> out once to check out the truck.
>> However, after 4 months, the truck isn't running any smoother, and in
>> fact, has really lost power and acceleration. We knew there would be a
>> learning curve, and that we'd have to be actively-involved in
>> problem-solving and resolution. We've put a lot of time into this, and
>> still don't have a smoothly-running vehicle.
>> We are curious to hear of others' experiences, feedback re: these
>> components, and/or suggestions for where to go from here. You can reply
>> on
>> or off list.
>>
>> Donn Kuntz and Julie Boyle
>> [hidden email]
>> Gill, Colorado
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091102/dcca3f91/attachment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091103/4a54556f/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

stub-2

Re: service businesses to care for EVs

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Dennis Miles-2

Possibly clutch chatter. Try resurfacing.

Stub
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Miles <[hidden email]>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 03:40:33
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] service businesses to care for EVs

Hi Phil, Sorry to say your comment is right in line for a DC system, but
this one is not. it is a three phase AC design with a brushless motor
connected to a "Variable Frequency Drive" designed for that motor. And after
shifting to 2nd or 3rd gear if you floor the accelerator, you will feel
strong acceleration and Bu-Bu-Bu-Bump during about a 1.5 second interval
then it will continue to accelerate thru the normal rpm range. If you do
not press hard but accelerate gently, there is no bumping, just slow smooth
driving. Wayne of "Electric Blue" has been working with "Azure Dynamics" who
provided the motor and controller as a set. I am sure the problem is in the
controller (80%) or the motor (19%) or in the batteries and wiring (1%) And
I am eagerly awaiting the successful resolution of this problem.
Regards,
Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO) Electric Vehicle Technical Institute
Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:39 PM, phil galati <[hidden email]>wrote:

--
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091103/4a54556f/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev