Thames lock keepers houses (EDM)

[Julian Tether-3]

House of Commons - Early day motion - loss of lock keepers homes.


Ian Taylor MP has alerted all the MP's along the Thames where lockhouses are
threatened and he is hoping they will sign an 'Early Day Motion' which he
will table in the House next week. He has also written to the Chairman of
the EA, and has asked for a meeting with Peter Quarmby. Finally, he has also
written to the Secretary of State for the Environment.

The Early Day Motion says:
"That this House is concerned about the Environment Agency's proposals to
dispose of 22 lock keepers homes along the Thames; recognises the importance
of lock keepers being resident in homes adjacent to lock to maintain safety
on the River; fears for the welfare of the lock keepers and their families
and calls on the Government to ask the Environment Agency to re-examine its
decision so as to prevent this unique part of our river heritage and the
tradition of lock keepers living at the site of locks being lost."

If you haven't already contacted your MP, please do so and ask them to sign
the Early Day Motion (EDM).

An easy way to contact your MP  is here: http://www.writetothem.com/


Julian


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[Ian Petchey]

> If you haven't already contacted your MP, please do so and ask them to
> sign the Early Day Motion (EDM).
>
> An easy way to contact your MP  is here: http://www.writetothem.com/

You can see who has signed this EDM here
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=35864&SESSION=891


Kind Regards
Ian Petchey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:dbamain-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:03 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: DBAm: Thames lock keepers houses (EDM)
>
> House of Commons - Early day motion - loss of lock keepers homes.
>
>
> Ian Taylor MP has alerted all the MP's along the Thames where lockhouses
> are
> threatened and he is hoping they will sign an 'Early Day Motion' which he
> will table in the House next week. He has also written to the Chairman of
> the EA, and has asked for a meeting with Peter Quarmby. Finally, he has
> also
> written to the Secretary of State for the Environment.
>
> The Early Day Motion says:
> "That this House is concerned about the Environment Agency's proposals to
> dispose of 22 lock keepers homes along the Thames; recognises the
> importance
> of lock keepers being resident in homes adjacent to lock to maintain
> safety
> on the River; fears for the welfare of the lock keepers and their families
> and calls on the Government to ask the Environment Agency to re-examine
> its
> decision so as to prevent this unique part of our river heritage and the
> tradition of lock keepers living at the site of locks being lost."
>
> If you haven't already contacted your MP, please do so and ask them to
> sign
> the Early Day Motion (EDM).
>
> An easy way to contact your MP  is here: http://www.writetothem.com/
>
>
> Julian
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
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> retrieving lost passwords at http://www.barges.org/newsgroups#maint

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[Adrian-87]

On Thu, 15 May 2008 16:02:53 +0100, "Julian" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>House of Commons - Early day motion - loss of lock keepers homes.
>
>
>Ian Taylor MP has alerted all the MP's along the Thames where lockhouses are
>threatened and he is hoping they will sign an 'Early Day Motion' which he
>will table in the House next week. He has also written to the Chairman of
>the EA, and has asked for a meeting with Peter Quarmby. Finally, he has also
>written to the Secretary of State for the Environment.
>
>The Early Day Motion says:
>"That this House is concerned about the Environment Agency's proposals to
>dispose of 22 lock keepers homes along the Thames; recognises the importance
>of lock keepers being resident in homes adjacent to lock to maintain safety
>on the River; fears for the welfare of the lock keepers and their families
>and calls on the Government to ask the Environment Agency to re-examine its
>decision so as to prevent this unique part of our river heritage and the
>tradition of lock keepers living at the site of locks being lost."
>
>If you haven't already contacted your MP, please do so and ask them to sign
>the Early Day Motion (EDM).

Are we *sure* that what EA is doing is wrong?

EA has here some £20 millions-worth of assets that it believes it
doesn't need.  It is proposing to release that capital (through sale),
or get income from it (through renting at market rates), to be spent
on the waterways.  That seems like it might be sound management, and a
good thing for the waterways.

I believe that the weirs concerned are now mechanised, and are
monitored and controlled remotely, from EA's operations centre.  

AIUI, the houses with heritage value are already listed, protecting
them from redevelopment.

There are (almost) no resident lock keepers on BW's navigable rivers.
Lock keepers on canals in UK almost completely disappeared a long time
ago (and many of the houses were sold); this is now well advanced in
France too, I think.

There will still be (non-resident) lock keepers on the Thames
(although I understand EA is planning to cut back on their hours).

However, I do see the following as remaining issues:

- It would possibly be wiser for EA to dispose of the properties by
long-term lease, as opposed to sale, so it would retain control of
what happens to the sites in future.  An inappropriate redevelopment
could prejudice the stability of the lock, make the lock more
difficult to use, etc.

- I understand that the salaries of the resident keepers are currently
set assuming that they get the benefit of a "free" house to live in.
Surely this means that if they are evicted from their houses, then
their salaries should go up by the amount that would let them rent
somewhere in the vicinity (at market rates).  

I feel DBA should be cautious about rushing to oppose this initiative
in principle.  The initial reaction of other waterway user
organisations appears to be tending towards the emotional rather than
the rational.

Adrian

Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966
or (0)208-123-3557 (Skype)
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[David Beaumont]

This issue of lock keepers has come up a couple of times before on the list.


The last time I think it was Richmond lock and the Port of London
Authority's decision to  'automate' it, getting rid of the keeper.  This
meant daylight operation only with a £35 out of hours call out charge for
barges.  The DBA didn't oppose this, which I personally think is a shame. It
seems to me that if we don't oppose these sort of things who will? Luckily
the brains behind the idea left the PLA's employ and the plan was quietly
binned.  

http://www.nabble.com/Richmond-lock-closure-to11933311s25109.html#a11933314

The older example was Trevor the singing lock keeper on the K&A

http://www.nabble.com/DEFRA-Cuts-hit-home-%28Literally%29-to11933289s25109.h
tml#a11933289

I don't know what happened to him, but again the DBA were divided on the
issue.  

Obviously each case should be viewed on its merits but I do think the
default DBA view/starting position ought to be to oppose these cuts.  That
is what we're for isn't it and if we don't, who will?  

This argument that the more we let the EA/BW/PLA cut, the less they will
charge us is surely fundamentally flawed.  Do DBA members really think that
way?  If so have they considered joining EA/BW/PLA instead of a barging
pressure group?

David


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[Chris Moss-4]

Adrian wrote:
> Are we *sure* that what EA is doing is wrong?
>  

A friend of mine has just got a temporary lock keeper job on the upper
Thames and he says the lock keepers are up in arms. I'll contact him for
more information but it seems that the EA is totally disorganised. He
was told to start on the 15th May and was then sent a contract for 21st
and has now been told it will be 28th.
> There are (almost) no resident lock keepers on BW's navigable rivers.
> Lock keepers on canals in UK almost completely disappeared a long time
> ago

There are plenty of (mainly) non-resident lock keepers still around. You
should get out and about Adrian! You're getting out of touch. How about
all the locks on the Trent and most of the big canal flights where water
control is essential? Not to speak of the Thames where in summer there
can be 15 boats in a lock ranging from rowing boats to big barges. Many
of these are unmanned during the winter months but are you suggesting
they could be during the summer as well?

Tied cottages are always a mixed blessing but but I'll bet the current
occupants won't be getting fair compensation.

Chris


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[Edward Burrell-2]

Having attended the recent EA NNUF (National Navigation Users Forum) at
which the plan to dispose of unwanted property was unveiled perhaps I
could offer a couple of comments.

EA have been charged by government to divest of any assets which are not
earning their place.  Originally they were given 10 years but this was
reduced to 5.
The tied lockhouse system dates back to pre-car, pre-phone, pre-mobile
and pre-email. In this day and age there are more efficient ways of
managing locks, wiers etc.  Other public sector bodies have had to
re-organise to stay effective (recently the Firemen).
EA know that they cannot sell freehold of lockside houses because of the
inherent problems of losing control over the lockside.  Where there are
a few surplus lockside houses these will be rented out. EA will retain
capital value but gain income.  The 10 houses being sold are away from
the lock sites. Each lockhouse costs £9k pa to manage and maintain.
During winter months there is relatively little traffic so having a
manned lock at each site is expensive. This could be trimmed and, with
automated locks, users can manage on their own.  Most winter traffic is
not hire boats etc. However by trimming winter costs EA plan to employ
more summer assistants.  Also worth noting that 22 lock keepers do not
live in EA property now.  Obviously they will adjust salaries to
compensate those who relocate.  The entire EA pay structure is now under
review.

The unfortunate part of all this is the collosal mishandling of the
issue which has led to such high emotive reactions.  BW have just
announced they too, under govt pressure, are analysing their property
portfolio.  They have spotted the problems EA created and are tackling
it rather more carefully.

Needless to say it is us, the user, who pays for EA inefficiency.  In
June I have a meeting with senior EA river management to discuss the
prohibitive barge licence charges. It is in our interest to support
attempts to trim their cloth.  Otherwise we should offer to pay more to
keep the system unchanged. Any volunteers?

Ultimately the proof will be in the eating.
regards
Edward.



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[John-439]

Very interesting email
Is it not true this is what we are seeing on the canals of France
Automated locks
Very impersonal but efficient
Regrettably this is "the times" we live in
On refection I prefer investment in the actual waterways rather than housing
however sad
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward Burrell
Sent: 18 May 2008 19:00
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: DBAm: Thames lock keepers houses (EDM)

Having attended the recent EA NNUF (National Navigation Users Forum) at
which the plan to dispose of unwanted property was unveiled perhaps I
could offer a couple of comments.

EA have been charged by government to divest of any assets which are not
earning their place.  Originally they were given 10 years but this was
reduced to 5.
The tied lockhouse system dates back to pre-car, pre-phone, pre-mobile
and pre-email. In this day and age there are more efficient ways of
managing locks, wiers etc.  Other public sector bodies have had to
re-organise to stay effective (recently the Firemen).
EA know that they cannot sell freehold of lockside houses because of the
inherent problems of losing control over the lockside.  Where there are
a few surplus lockside houses these will be rented out. EA will retain
capital value but gain income.  The 10 houses being sold are away from
the lock sites. Each lockhouse costs £9k pa to manage and maintain.
During winter months there is relatively little traffic so having a
manned lock at each site is expensive. This could be trimmed and, with
automated locks, users can manage on their own.  Most winter traffic is
not hire boats etc. However by trimming winter costs EA plan to employ
more summer assistants.  Also worth noting that 22 lock keepers do not
live in EA property now.  Obviously they will adjust salaries to
compensate those who relocate.  The entire EA pay structure is now under
review.

The unfortunate part of all this is the collosal mishandling of the
issue which has led to such high emotive reactions.  BW have just
announced they too, under govt pressure, are analysing their property
portfolio.  They have spotted the problems EA created and are tackling
it rather more carefully.

Needless to say it is us, the user, who pays for EA inefficiency.  In
June I have a meeting with senior EA river management to discuss the
prohibitive barge licence charges. It is in our interest to support
attempts to trim their cloth.  Otherwise we should offer to pay more to
keep the system unchanged. Any volunteers?

Ultimately the proof will be in the eating.
regards
Edward.



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[Ian Petchey]

> I believe that the weirs concerned are now mechanised, and are
> monitored and controlled remotely, from EA's operations centre.  

My own personal views.....It would be interesting to establish facts. My
understanding is that the Thames resident lock keepers are often called out
in the middle of the night  to adjust the weirs / sluce gates.... alerted by
an alarm into the lock house.

> Lock keepers on canals in UK almost completely disappeared a long time
> ago (and many of the houses were sold).

Rivers, especially the Thames with potentially high river flows, should I
believe be treated differently to canals.  

> - It would possibly be wiser for EA to dispose of the properties by
> long-term lease, as opposed to sale, so it would retain control of
> what happens to the sites in future.

If the weirs are automated and do not need manual intervention I agree.

> The 10 houses being sold are away from the lock sites.

Not sure this is true. Bell Weir is at the side of the lock, and is on the
list for sale, as is Boulters.

Personally I believe Lock keepers should be given a reasonable salary, then
if residential, charged for rent of the lock keepers cottage.  

Kind Regards
Ian Petchey
Elessina



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[Andy Soper-2]

A couple of further points
   
  When the riverside land adjacent to Shepperton dry-dock was sold recently the EA were only allowed to keep 25% of the sale price.  The remainder returned to DEFRA's account. This will be the best that EA will gain from any sale.
   
  There is no guarantee that rental income will be retained by EA.
   
  There may be an advantage in a public furore as that would aid EA's case to keep the lockside houses (both Boulters and Bell Weir are on the sale list!). This may be a little machiavellian - but...........
   
  The number of barges on the Thames continues to increase.  A few volunteers to leave would help Edward's negotiations with EA!
   
 
 
 
 


Best wishes
   
  Andy Soper
Chairman

DBA - The Barge Association
mv Cormorant
Spade Oak Reach
Cookham SL6 9RQ

07000 Barges or 07940598364
   
  'You don't need a barge to join -  a dream will do'   See www.barges.org
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[spadeoak-barges]

If only our money had gone into a remotely controlled weir system - no we still have lock-keepers controlling flow by drawing paddles and ringing the man downstream to tell him what they have done.  That is why the level in my reach varies by 2ft over a sunny spring weekend!

Ian Petchey <[hidden email]> wrote:  > I believe that the weirs concerned are now mechanised, and are
> monitored and controlled remotely, from EA's operations centre.

My own personal views.....It would be interesting to establish facts. My
understanding is that the Thames resident lock keepers are often called out
in the middle of the night to adjust the weirs / sluce gates.... alerted by
an alarm into the lock house.



Best wishes
   
  Andy Soper
Chairman

DBA - The Barge Association
mv Cormorant
Spade Oak Reach
Cookham SL6 9RQ

07000 Barges or 07940598364
   
  'You don't need a barge to join -  a dream will do'   See www.barges.org
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[Chris Moss-4]

[hidden email] wrote:
> If only our money had gone into a remotely controlled weir system

In some parts of the country this has indeed been done. Most of the
drainage of Lincolnshire, which arrives to Boston, is computer
controlled and it's very tricky to avoid flooding at different places,
particularly as the tide sweeps up through the Haven and is higher than
the navigation at times.

But in Britain we're not very good at investing in such systems and only
do it where need is greatest.

Chris

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[Ian Petchey]

I believe this is from a Thames Lock Keeper:-

Thames lockkeepers do not have nice cottages by the river just because they
lock boats through. They are there because there is a clearly defined need
for them, Lockkeepers are also weirkeepers, in this role they are
responsible for controlling river levels and for reacting promptly to the
needs of the river, prompt attention to the weirs in times of rain or
drought is essential. the Environment Agency is yet to demonstrate how this
crucial aspect of the lockkeepers work can be efficiently handled if there
is no lockkeeper on site. They are also the first port of call for
emergencies out of hours, and rightly so.

There is now an e-petition titled "We the undersigned petition the Prime
Minister to Prevent the sale of River Thames lock keepers cottages by the
EA". If you would like to sign it the Web link is:-

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Thames-Locks/

 
Kind Regards
Ian Petchey
Elessina



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[Adrian-87]

On Sun, 18 May 2008 16:42:03 +0100, Chris Moss
<[hidden email]> wrote:


>> There are (almost) no resident lock keepers on BW's navigable rivers.
>> Lock keepers on canals in UK almost completely disappeared a long time
>> ago
>
>There are plenty of (mainly) non-resident lock keepers still around. You
>should get out and about Adrian! You're getting out of touch.

Huh?  I was discussing *resident* lock keepers.  

>How about all the locks on the Trent

I have never navigated the Trent.  However, haven't lock keepers
largely been withdrawn there of late?  Also the Severn, I believe?

Resident (indeed, all) keepers on the Lee and the Stort vanished
several generations ago.  

> and most of the big canal flights where water control is essential?

There are very few of these, mostly staircases.  Bingley, Foxton, and
Watford are the only ones that come to mind immediately.  I'm not sure
whether the keepers at these three are resident, but I think they may
be.  There is also some non-resident supervision (not really keeping)
at Devizes.  However, at locks into tidal waters, Limehouse and
Brentford, for example, there haven't been resident keepers for quite
a while.

>Not to speak of the Thames where in summer there
>can be 15 boats in a lock ranging from rowing boats to big barges. Many
>of these are unmanned during the winter months but are you suggesting
>they could be during the summer as well?

No.  I was suggesting that there is no need for the keepers there to
be resident.  Which I understand is what EA thinks too.

>Tied cottages are always a mixed blessing but but I'll bet the current
>occupants won't be getting fair compensation.

I don't know what EA has suggested concerning compensation, but as I
suggested in my previous posting I feel that since the value of the
dwelling has apparently in effect been considered part of the resident
keeper's pay, then that pay should be increased by that amount if the
provision of the dwelling ends.

Adrian
Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966
or (0)208-123-3557 (Skype)
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[Julian Tether-3]

In message <[hidden email]>, Adrian
<[hidden email]> writes
>However, at locks into tidal waters, Limehouse and
>Brentford, for example, there haven't been resident keepers for quite
>a while.
There is still one at Brentford or was last time we came through
(September). However because of shift work and the fact that we come
through out of hours mostly we get the relief keeper.
--

Julian Tether
Barge Parglena
e-mail: [hidden email]

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[Adrian-87]

On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:37:57 +0100, Julian Tether
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>In message <[hidden email]>, Adrian
><[hidden email]> writes
>>However, at locks into tidal waters, Limehouse and
>>Brentford, for example, there haven't been resident keepers for quite
>>a while.

>There is still one at Brentford or was last time we came through
>(September). However because of shift work and the fact that we come
>through out of hours mostly we get the relief keeper.

Yes, there is still a lock keeper at Brentford, but no longer resident
I believe.

Adrian


Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966
or (0)208-123-3557 (Skype)
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[Julian Tether-3]

In message <[hidden email]>, Adrian
<[hidden email]> writes
>Yes, there is still a lock keeper at Brentford, but no longer resident
>I believe.
Sam was still in the house in September. Maybe its changed since then
--

Julian Tether
Barge Parglena
e-mail: [hidden email]

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