battery help

[joe-22]

You are using the engineering philosophy that the theory always can be
reduced to practical reality - I have done this, and can testify that it
doesn't work out that way, and my friend John Wayland explained to me why it
doesn't, which I have passed on to you!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help

> Correct,
>
> Adding batteries will always increase the amount of
> energy that you are carrying and it is the energy that
> gives you range.
> You can easily see that from the reasoning that Joe used:
> Adding batteries in series will not give more Ah, so he
> drew the (false) conclusion that the range will not
> increase when the Ah stay the same and only the voltage
> increases. But if you look at how a controller works then
> you see that the controller will perform a task called
> "current multiplication" when the output voltage is
> lower than the input voltage, (almost) equal to the
> rate between the two.
> Eaxmple: 120V and 100A input from the battery pack can
> result in 60V and (almost) 200A output into the motor,
> to maintain a certain driving speed.
> Both are (almost) the same amount of power: 12kW.
> Now if two batteries are added to the pack, the same
> power is delivered at 144V when the batteries deliver
> approx 80A.
> This means that each battery delivers less power and
> this means that it can deliver the required power for
> a longer period, because the total energy contained
> in the pack is increased by adding batteries.
>
> Hope this clarifies,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: [phone]    VoIP: [phone] FWD# 25925
> Fax: [phone]    eFAX: [phone]
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of damon henry
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
>
>
> Joseph,
>
> You've been working too hard this summer.  Adding batteries and leaving
> everything else the same will always add range.  In fact in the case of
> lead acid batteries the range can be determined almost exclusively by how
> much weight in batteries you are carrying.  Whether they are in series or
> parallel makes very little difference.
>
> BTW - I should be down at the track watching the Nedra guys run right now,
> but it's looking like a possible rain out tonight.  I called Wayland about
> a half hour ago and they had cars lined up on the track trying to keep it
> dry hoping the rain will pass.
>
> damon> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries
> damon> will NOT > necessarily give you more range! It will give you
> damon> somewhat better > performance, all else being equal. The
> damon> amp-hours remains the same for any > number of batteries
> damon> connected in series, and the additional weight will > negate most
> damon> of the benefit beyond a certain point.> > Batteries connected in
> damon> parallel will give more range, batteries connected in > series
> damon> will boost performance.> > Joseph H. Strubhar>
> _________________________________________________________________
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[Zeke Yewdall]

Better performance could equal worse watthours per mile.  I know
people who have switched to the more efficient turbodiesel engines in
VW's, and actually gotten worse mileage... because they push the pedal
down more.  I bet the same thing is happening when you add more
batteries.

Z

On 8/19/07, joe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I  grant you that it may give you more life from the batteries, but it
> doesn't add mileage to your range, as much as the math would indicate. I
> know, I tried it! I went from 96V to 120V to 144V on my Datsun pickup, and I
> got better performance, but practically the same range. Why? Because the
> amphours that the batteries contain remains the same, and that is what
> determines the range. Yes,  increasing the lbs of lead theorically will
> increase range, but as a practical fact, it doesn't to a significant amount,
> unless you have  the batteries in series.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
>
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > No. Even though the pack has the same amp-hours, adding more batteries in
> > series will still add range. Here's why:
> >
> > Say that at cruising speed, your motor needs 50V and 100A. Further say
> > that
> > you have a 72V 120 amp-hour battery pack. The controller acts as a buck
> > converter, switching one terminal of the motor between power and ground.
> > The
> > motor acts as both the inductor and the load of the boost converter. For
> > more about Buck converters, look at "Buck_Converter" on Wikipedia.
> >
> > The duty cycle of the converter is Vo/Vin=50V/72V=0.694. So for 69% of the
> > time, 100 amps are coming from the battery, and for 31% of the time, 100
> > amps are coming from the stored energy inside of the coil. This means that
> > an average of 69.4 amps are being drawn from the battery.
> >
> > Now say that you add more identical batteries and are now at 96V, still
> > 120
> > amp-hours. Your motor still needs 50V and 100A to go at cruising speed.
> > Now
> > the duty cycle of the converter is D=Vo/Vin=50/96=0.521. Now with a duty
> > cycle of 52.1%, you are only drawing 100A from the battery 52.1% of the
> > time, for an average of 52.1 amps from the battery.
> >
> > Even though the number of amp-hours stays the same, when you add more
> > batteries in series, you draw less amps from the batteries, so they last
> > longer.
> >
> > -Morgan LaMoore
> >
> > On 8/18/07, joe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries will
> >> NOT
> >> necessarily give you more range! It will give you somewhat better
> >> performance, all else being equal. The amp-hours remains the same for any
> >> number of batteries connected in series, and the additional weight will
> >> negate most of the benefit beyond a certain point.
> >>
> >> Batteries connected in parallel will give more range, batteries connected
> >> in
> >> series will boost performance.
> >>
> >> Joseph H. Strubhar
> >>
> >> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >>
> >> E-mail: [hidden email]
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Joseph T. " <[hidden email]>
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 10:06 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
> >>
> >>
> >> > "I was really just looking for confirmation that adding two additional
> >> > batteries to the voltsrabbit design would boost the range."
> >> >
> >> > Adding two batteries will definitely give you more range. If you'd
> >> > like to mess around with different EV configurations you can go to
> >> > evconvert.com for their EV calculator.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 8/17/07, John A. Evans - N0HJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >> Thanks David and all,
> >> >>
> >> >>  I was really just looking for confirmation that adding two additional
> >> >> batteries to the voltsrabbit design would boost the range.  Of course,
> >> I
> >> >> should know that I really need to be correct and explicit in my
> >> >> terminology when I ask questions here.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks again,
> >> >> John
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> For subscription options, see
> >> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > For subscription options, see
> >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
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> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
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[Ralph Merwin-2]

Joe,

By this logic, you should be able to reduce your pack size to just a single
battery.  It'll have the same AH rating, right?  So you should get the same
range as you do now, maybe even beetter since the truck will be so much
lighter!

Of course, this single battery won't take you as far as a larger pack.
That's because it's the KWH rating that matters, not the AH rating.  Your
truck uses some number of watt hours per mile, so, in general, adding more
watt hours gives you more range.

My Geo Prizm had at one time a 120v pack of Optima Yellow Tops, configured
as 10 buddy pairs in series.  It had a max range of about 20 miles.  It now
has a 156v pack of Optima Yellow Tops in 13 buddy pairs, and it has a range
of about 35 miles.

More KWH, more range...

Ralph


joe writes:

>
> I  grant you that it may give you more life from the batteries, but it
> doesn't add mileage to your range, as much as the math would indicate. I
> know, I tried it! I went from 96V to 120V to 144V on my Datsun pickup, and I
> got better performance, but practically the same range. Why? Because the
> amphours that the batteries contain remains the same, and that is what
> determines the range. Yes,  increasing the lbs of lead theorically will
> increase range, but as a practical fact, it doesn't to a significant amount,
> unless you have  the batteries in series.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
>
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > No. Even though the pack has the same amp-hours, adding more batteries in
> > series will still add range. Here's why:
> >
> > Say that at cruising speed, your motor needs 50V and 100A. Further say
> > that
> > you have a 72V 120 amp-hour battery pack. The controller acts as a buck
> > converter, switching one terminal of the motor between power and ground.
> > The
> > motor acts as both the inductor and the load of the boost converter. For
> > more about Buck converters, look at "Buck_Converter" on Wikipedia.
> >
> > The duty cycle of the converter is Vo/Vin=50V/72V=0.694. So for 69% of the
> > time, 100 amps are coming from the battery, and for 31% of the time, 100
> > amps are coming from the stored energy inside of the coil. This means that
> > an average of 69.4 amps are being drawn from the battery.
> >
> > Now say that you add more identical batteries and are now at 96V, still
> > 120
> > amp-hours. Your motor still needs 50V and 100A to go at cruising speed.
> > Now
> > the duty cycle of the converter is D=Vo/Vin=50/96=0.521. Now with a duty
> > cycle of 52.1%, you are only drawing 100A from the battery 52.1% of the
> > time, for an average of 52.1 amps from the battery.
> >
> > Even though the number of amp-hours stays the same, when you add more
> > batteries in series, you draw less amps from the batteries, so they last
> > longer.
> >
> > -Morgan LaMoore
> >
> > On 8/18/07, joe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries will
> >> NOT
> >> necessarily give you more range! It will give you somewhat better
> >> performance, all else being equal. The amp-hours remains the same for any
> >> number of batteries connected in series, and the additional weight will
> >> negate most of the benefit beyond a certain point.
> >>
> >> Batteries connected in parallel will give more range, batteries connected
> >> in
> >> series will boost performance.
> >>
> >> Joseph H. Strubhar
> >>
> >> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >>
> >> E-mail: [hidden email]
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Joseph T. " <[hidden email]>
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 10:06 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
> >>
> >>
> >> > "I was really just looking for confirmation that adding two additional
> >> > batteries to the voltsrabbit design would boost the range."
> >> >
> >> > Adding two batteries will definitely give you more range. If you'd
> >> > like to mess around with different EV configurations you can go to
> >> > evconvert.com for their EV calculator.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 8/17/07, John A. Evans - N0HJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >> Thanks David and all,
> >> >>
> >> >>  I was really just looking for confirmation that adding two additional
> >> >> batteries to the voltsrabbit design would boost the range.  Of course,
> >> I
> >> >> should know that I really need to be correct and explicit in my
> >> >> terminology when I ask questions here.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks again,
> >> >> John
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> For subscription options, see
> >> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > For subscription options, see
> >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
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[Jeff Shanab]

Huh? I thought this was answered.

   I have been skimming but...watts is watts. Miles is wh/ (wh/mile)
and wh is (ah*volts)    (run thru your calculation in units first and
you will see)

Given the same efficiency, 120V at 100ah is same as 240V at 50ah, both
are 12kwh

(12000wh*.8)/ (300wh/mile) = 32miles.

When we start to consider pukerts and the ah if used in an hour. And the
I^2R losses. It gets worse from here.



   

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[Cor van de Water]

Hi Joe,

You may want to consult with John again (or ask Lee)
if you do not believe me, but you should get the same
answer from them, as physics laws do not lie.
You can manipulate an experiment of course, for example
pull away from every stop at may throttle - with the
higher voltage you will be pulling MORE amps from the
battery instead of less as soon as the controller is
out of current limit, so that will ruin your range.
You will have more fun but to compare the two trips
as apples to apples comparison, you should use equal
motor amps (driving at the same speed and acceleration)
and them you will see that adding batteries does indeed
add range.

Success experimenting,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: [phone]    VoIP: [phone] FWD# 25925
Fax: [phone]    eFAX: [phone]
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of joe
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 12:52 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help

You are using the engineering philosophy that the theory always can be reduced to practical reality - I have done this, and can testify that it doesn't work out that way, and my friend John Wayland explained to me why it doesn't, which I have passed on to you!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help

> Correct,
>
> Adding batteries will always increase the amount of
> energy that you are carrying and it is the energy that
> gives you range.
> You can easily see that from the reasoning that Joe used:
> Adding batteries in series will not give more Ah, so he
> drew the (false) conclusion that the range will not
> increase when the Ah stay the same and only the voltage
> increases. But if you look at how a controller works then
> you see that the controller will perform a task called
> "current multiplication" when the output voltage is
> lower than the input voltage, (almost) equal to the
> rate between the two.
> Eaxmple: 120V and 100A input from the battery pack can
> result in 60V and (almost) 200A output into the motor,
> to maintain a certain driving speed.
> Both are (almost) the same amount of power: 12kW.
> Now if two batteries are added to the pack, the same
> power is delivered at 144V when the batteries deliver
> approx 80A.
> This means that each battery delivers less power and
> this means that it can deliver the required power for
> a longer period, because the total energy contained
> in the pack is increased by adding batteries.
>
> Hope this clarifies,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: [phone]    VoIP: [phone] FWD# 25925
> Fax: [phone]    eFAX: [phone]
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of damon henry
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
>
>
> Joseph,
>
> You've been working too hard this summer.  Adding batteries and leaving
> everything else the same will always add range.  In fact in the case of
> lead acid batteries the range can be determined almost exclusively by how
> much weight in batteries you are carrying.  Whether they are in series or
> parallel makes very little difference.
>
> BTW - I should be down at the track watching the Nedra guys run right now,
> but it's looking like a possible rain out tonight.  I called Wayland about
> a half hour ago and they had cars lined up on the track trying to keep it
> dry hoping the rain will pass.
>
> damon> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries
> damon> will NOT > necessarily give you more range! It will give you
> damon> somewhat better > performance, all else being equal. The
> damon> amp-hours remains the same for any > number of batteries
> damon> connected in series, and the additional weight will > negate most
> damon> of the benefit beyond a certain point.> > Batteries connected in
> damon> parallel will give more range, batteries connected in > series
> damon> will boost performance.> > Joseph H. Strubhar>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live
> Spaces. It's easy!
> http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
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>
> _______________________________________________
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[EVDL Administrator]

On 19 Aug 2007 at 12:49, joe wrote:

> I  grant you that it may give you more life from the batteries, but it
> doesn't add mileage to your range, as much as the math would indicate. I know,
> I tried it! I went from 96V to 120V to 144V on my Datsun pickup, and I got
> better performance, but practically the same range. Why? Because the amphours
> that the batteries contain remains the same, and that is what determines the
> range.

Your last sentence is not correct.  The energy available is not measured in
AH but rather in WH.  By increasing the system voltage, you increased the
available WH, so your range under a given set of conditions >had< to  
increase.

Note the qualifier - "under a given set of conditions."  With all other
thngs being equal, adding voltage also increases the peak power available.  
Did you maintain the same conditions?  To do so, you might have to loop a
belt round your right foot.  If you let it have fun with that newfound extra
energy, then it may well be that you will >seem< to have similar range - or
even less.  

A properly controlled range test will remove the human factor - the lead
foot - and tell an accurate, impartial story.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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