hudson on subversion

[Tom Huybrechts]

Are there any plans to ever move the Hudson source to a Subversion repository ?
CVS isn't very firewall friendly :(

Tom

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[stephenconnolly]

and cvs update is a pain compared to svn.

Sent from my iPod

On 24 Mar 2008, at 21:10, "Tom Huybrechts" <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> Are there any plans to ever move the Hudson source to a Subversion  
> repository ?
> CVS isn't very firewall friendly :(
>
> Tom
>
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[Kohsuke Kawaguchi]

Tom Huybrechts wrote:
> Are there any plans to ever move the Hudson source to a Subversion repository ?
> CVS isn't very firewall friendly :(

We'd basically need to do a fund-raising. Collab.net would charge us
some fee (I think $500-$750 or so) to get an existing project converted
into a Subversion repository.

A few possibilities:

  - Solicit donation via, say, PayPal or something.
  - Promote Hudson shop on CafePress and use the proceed
  - Wait for someone to win GlassFish Award Program and see if
    he could share the wealth with the community ;-)


--
Kohsuke Kawaguchi
Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]

[stephenconnolly]

do we really need the history?

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 10:55 PM, Kohsuke Kawaguchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tom Huybrechts wrote:
> Are there any plans to ever move the Hudson source to a Subversion repository ?
> CVS isn't very firewall friendly :(

We'd basically need to do a fund-raising. Collab.net would charge us
some fee (I think $500-$750 or so) to get an existing project converted
into a Subversion repository.

A few possibilities:

 - Solicit donation via, say, PayPal or something.
 - Promote Hudson shop on CafePress and use the proceed
 - Wait for someone to win GlassFish Award Program and see if
   he could share the wealth with the community ;-)


--
Kohsuke Kawaguchi
Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]

[stephenconnolly]

A straight switch to subversion and keep the CVS for history

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 10:57 PM, Stephen Connolly <[hidden email]> wrote:

do we really need the history?

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 10:55 PM, Kohsuke Kawaguchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tom Huybrechts wrote:
> Are there any plans to ever move the Hudson source to a Subversion repository ?
> CVS isn't very firewall friendly :(

We'd basically need to do a fund-raising. Collab.net would charge us
some fee (I think $500-$750 or so) to get an existing project converted
into a Subversion repository.

A few possibilities:

 - Solicit donation via, say, PayPal or something.
 - Promote Hudson shop on CafePress and use the proceed
 - Wait for someone to win GlassFish Award Program and see if
   he could share the wealth with the community ;-)


--
Kohsuke Kawaguchi
Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]

[Matt Reynolds-5]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:55 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: hudson on subversion
>
> Tom Huybrechts wrote:
> > Are there any plans to ever move the Hudson source to a Subversion
> repository ?
> > CVS isn't very firewall friendly :(
>
> We'd basically need to do a fund-raising. Collab.net would charge us
> some fee (I think $500-$750 or so) to get an existing project

converted
> into a Subversion repository.
>
> A few possibilities:
>
>   - Solicit donation via, say, PayPal or something.
>   - Promote Hudson shop on CafePress and use the proceed
>   - Wait for someone to win GlassFish Award Program and see if
>     he could share the wealth with the community ;-)

Is the charge because :
a)  There is a technical challenge (say, running cvs2svn) and it costs
money?
b)  It's a flat fee, period (Collab.net business model!)
c)  ???

I'm curious why SVN would be *extra*, considering that SVN isn't that
fundamentally different from CVS from a hosting standpoint (I believe
this to be true, would love to hear otherwise).

Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN (yes, it
does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?

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[Jorg Heymans]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Matt Reynolds <[hidden email]> wrote:

Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN (yes, it
does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?

+1, dev.java.net doesn't do much justice to the project unfortunately... Maybe if we throw in a pony we can persuade Kohsuke to look at alternatives ?

Having said that, i'm more than willing to take up this task myself (and doing the grunt work of physically migrating) if Kohsuke and the rest of the Hudson developer community gives green light ...
 
Cheers,
Jorg

[Erik Ramfelt]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Jorg Heymans <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Matt Reynolds <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN (yes, it
> > does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?
>
> +1, dev.java.net doesn't do much justice to the project unfortunately...
> Maybe if we throw in a pony we can persuade Kohsuke to look at alternatives
> ?
>
> Having said that, i'm more than willing to take up this task myself (and
> doing the grunt work of physically migrating) if Kohsuke and the rest of the
> Hudson developer community gives green light ...

Don't you mean a blue light? ;)


I would also like to see a different SCM than CVS (why only restrict
discussion to SVN?). But relocating the project to another host would
also require porting all the issues (with comments and so on), mailing
lists, maven plugin publisher, etc. That mean a lot of history could
be lost. I dont see a very good reason to relocate the whole project
just to switch SCM. I mean the momentum on Hudson is very high now,
and relocating would be a big hit to it and I dont want to see Hudson
slowing down.

So Im guessing Im leaning towards paying collab.net to do the move. I
think the fee is that someone at collab.net has to do the actual job,
its not a fee for using subversion.


//My 0.12 kr
Erik

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[stephenconnolly]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

the fee is for someone at collab.net to port the history

Sent from my iPod

On 25 Mar 2008, at 08:45, "Jorg Heymans" <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Matt Reynolds <[hidden email]> wrote:

Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN (yes, it
does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?

+1, dev.java.net doesn't do much justice to the project unfortunately... Maybe if we throw in a pony we can persuade Kohsuke to look at alternatives ?

Having said that, i'm more than willing to take up this task myself (and doing the grunt work of physically migrating) if Kohsuke and the rest of the Hudson developer community gives green light ...
 
Cheers,
Jorg

[stephenconnolly]

collab.net only offers cvs and svn afaik. I say stay on java.net

Sent from my iPod

On 25 Mar 2008, at 09:22, "Erik Ramfelt" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Jorg Heymans  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Matt Reynolds <[hidden email]
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN  
>>> (yes, it
>>> does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?
>>
>> +1, dev.java.net doesn't do much justice to the project  
>> unfortunately...
>> Maybe if we throw in a pony we can persuade Kohsuke to look at  
>> alternatives
>> ?
>>
>> Having said that, i'm more than willing to take up this task myself  
>> (and
>> doing the grunt work of physically migrating) if Kohsuke and the  
>> rest of the
>> Hudson developer community gives green light ...
>
> Don't you mean a blue light? ;)
>
>
> I would also like to see a different SCM than CVS (why only restrict
> discussion to SVN?). But relocating the project to another host would
> also require porting all the issues (with comments and so on), mailing
> lists, maven plugin publisher, etc. That mean a lot of history could
> be lost. I dont see a very good reason to relocate the whole project
> just to switch SCM. I mean the momentum on Hudson is very high now,
> and relocating would be a big hit to it and I dont want to see Hudson
> slowing down.
>
> So Im guessing Im leaning towards paying collab.net to do the move. I
> think the fee is that someone at collab.net has to do the actual job,
> its not a fee for using subversion.
>
>
> //My 0.12 kr
> Erik
>
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[tvworks]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Any reason why volunteers couldn’t do this to save some money?  I know I have been down this road before with my company, we switched our entire code base from CVS to Subversion a couple of years ago so I don’t think it would be too difficult for a couple of volunteers that know what they are doing to get this done.

 

---

From: Stephen Connolly [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: hudson on subversion

 

the fee is for someone at collab.net to port the history

Sent from my iPod

On 25 Mar 2008, at 08:45, "Jorg Heymans" <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Matt Reynolds <[hidden email][hidden email]> wrote:

Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN (yes, it
does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?

+1, dev.java.net doesn't do much justice to the project unfortunately... Maybe if we throw in a pony we can persuade Kohsuke to look at alternatives ?

Having said that, i'm more than willing to take up this task myself (and doing the grunt work of physically migrating) if Kohsuke and the rest of the Hudson developer community gives green light ...
 
Cheers,
Jorg

 

[Jorg Heymans]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Erik Ramfelt <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would also like to see a different SCM than CVS (why only restrict
discussion to SVN?). But relocating the project to another host would
also require porting all the issues (with comments and so on), mailing
lists, maven plugin publisher, etc. That mean a lot of history could
be lost.

Yep, that's what I meant above when I said "grunt work". It might not be possible alltogether for example to export a mailinglist from collab.net, and if it's possible then it might not be possible to import it in google code - but all this can be investigated upfront _if_ the community expresses an interest in this.
 

I dont see a very good reason to relocate the whole project
just to switch SCM. I mean the momentum on Hudson is very high now,
and relocating would be a big hit to it and I dont want to see Hudson
slowing down.

that's a very valid concern, impact on current momentum should be restricted to an absolute minimum.
 

So Im guessing Im leaning towards paying collab.net to do the move. I
think the fee is that someone at collab.net has to do the actual job,
its not a fee for using subversion.

But having to organize a $500 fund-raise to migrate properly to a more "modern" SCM is just crazy for any OSS project don't you think ? If any fund-raising were to be done, the results could be spent on much more meaningful things than an SCM migration ...

Regards
Jorg

[Daniel Dyer]

On 3/25/08, Jason Chaffee <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Any reason why volunteers couldn't do this to save some money?  I know I
> have been down this road before with my company, we switched our entire code
> base from CVS to Subversion a couple of years ago so I don't think it would
> be too difficult for a couple of volunteers that know what they are doing to
> get this done.
>

Presumably because we don't have the necessary access rights.  I don't
think Collab.net provides a way to import an existing repository.

However, if we were to do the first step and convert from CVS to SVN
and then provide them with the SVN dump, that means less work for
them.  Would that affect the fee involved?  The fee that Kohsuke
mentioned is ridiculous, we could rent our own server for years for
that.

Dan.

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[Daniel Dyer]

On 3/25/08, Erik Ramfelt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  I would also like to see a different SCM than CVS (why only restrict
>  discussion to SVN?). But relocating the project to another host would
>  also require porting all the issues (with comments and so on), mailing
>  lists, maven plugin publisher, etc. That mean a lot of history could
>  be lost. I dont see a very good reason to relocate the whole project
>  just to switch SCM. I mean the momentum on Hudson is very high now,
>  and relocating would be a big hit to it and I dont want to see Hudson
>  slowing down.

I agree with Erik in that I'm not convinced that Hudson should move
away from java.net.  When TestNG moved from Java.net to Google Code I
thought it was a backward step.  Although Google Code has improved
somewhat since then, I still don't think the benefits outweigh the
disadvantages, particularly if Google Code does not permit an existing
repository to be imported without losing the history (I don't know
whether this is the case or not).

Dan.

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[Kohsuke Kawaguchi]

Stephen Connolly wrote:
> do we really need the history?

Yes, I do need history. It's very common for people to report a bug
against old versions of Hudson, and then it's very important for me to
be able to compare the source code at that time and the source code now,
to see if the problem still exists, etc.

>
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 10:55 PM, Kohsuke Kawaguchi <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Tom Huybrechts wrote:
>      > Are there any plans to ever move the Hudson source to a Subversion
>     repository ?
>      > CVS isn't very firewall friendly :(
>
>     We'd basically need to do a fund-raising. Collab.net <http://Collab.net>
>     would charge us
>     some fee (I think $500-$750 or so) to get an existing project converted
>     into a Subversion repository.
>
>     A few possibilities:
>
>      - Solicit donation via, say, PayPal or something.
>      - Promote Hudson shop on CafePress and use the proceed
>      - Wait for someone to win GlassFish Award Program and see if
>        he could share the wealth with the community ;-)
>
>
>     --
>     Kohsuke Kawaguchi
>     Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>

--
Kohsuke Kawaguchi
Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]

[Kohsuke Kawaguchi]

Matt Reynolds wrote:

>> A few possibilities:
>>
>>   - Solicit donation via, say, PayPal or something.
>>   - Promote Hudson shop on CafePress and use the proceed
>>   - Wait for someone to win GlassFish Award Program and see if
>>     he could share the wealth with the community ;-)
>
> Is the charge because :
> a)  There is a technical challenge (say, running cvs2svn) and it costs
> money?
> b)  It's a flat fee, period (Collab.net business model!)
> c)  ???

My understanding is that this is a charge for the one-time "manual" work
of running a repository conversion program, checking sanity, and updates
relevant project database to swap the SCM.

This is a part of how Collab.net makes money, although I don't think
it's their primary means of making money.


> I'm curious why SVN would be *extra*, considering that SVN isn't that
> fundamentally different from CVS from a hosting standpoint (I believe
> this to be true, would love to hear otherwise).
>
> Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN (yes, it
> does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?

Note that the cost is for conversion --- if you create a new project
with Subversion, that's of course free.

And if there are a lot of projects wanting to convert, perhaps the price
could have come down, or perhaps the community could have negotiated a
better deal, but that's the current arrangement, at least when I've last
heard about it.

--
Kohsuke Kawaguchi
Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]

[Matt Reynolds-5]

To summarize what I've seen so far :
* 500-750 dollars to convert from CVS to SVN is crazy (+1)
* Mixed support for move to a different site due to the cost (downtime,
user confusion, etc) / Benefit (SVN/other SCM) analysis
* Other SCMs would be nice, but if Hudson isn't moving off of
collab.net, this might not be an option

Anything else?

I'm personally moved several entire codebases from CVS to SVN and would
volunteer to do it for Hudson.  It would require only a read-only FS
copy of the repository and should, given what I've seen of conversion
times, take a few hours.  We could do a test run with earlier copies of
the repository and then shutoff commits, convert to a repository, and
deliver an SVN dump to the Collab.net admins (or do it ourselves,
maybe?).

The real question I have at this point is how is the SVN administered,
and what process does collab.net have for users performing the
conversion?  I figure if we can deliver an SVN dump, I think that's a
good interface point with the collab.net folks.

Related links :
http://raibledesigns.com/rd/entry/moving_from_cvs_to_svn - Another
conversion, almost same discussion

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[Kohsuke Kawaguchi]

Jorg Heymans wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Matt Reynolds <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Also, is the fee *per project*?  Doesn't google code host SVN (yes, it
>     does)?  Want to move there?  Want a cheeseburger?  With fries?
>
>
> +1, dev.java.net <http://dev.java.net> doesn't do much justice to the project
> unfortunately... Maybe if we throw in a pony we can persuade Kohsuke to look at
> alternatives ?
>
> Having said that, i'm more than willing to take up this task myself (and doing
> the grunt work of physically migrating) if Kohsuke and the rest of the Hudson
> developer community gives green light ...

At this point I think it's very hard for any project, including Hudson,
to move elsewhere.

There's just so much work --- migrating mailing lists, contents of the
issue tracker, and updates to FishEye. There's a lot of URLs our there
that point to those, and most of it will become 404.

In the past I've done some much smaller migration, and within java.net,
and I can tell you that even that was rather painful.

So IMO, our time would be better spent elsewhere.

--
Kohsuke Kawaguchi
Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]

[Kohsuke Kawaguchi]

Daniel Dyer wrote:

> On 3/25/08, Jason Chaffee <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Any reason why volunteers couldn't do this to save some money?  I know I
>> have been down this road before with my company, we switched our entire code
>> base from CVS to Subversion a couple of years ago so I don't think it would
>> be too difficult for a couple of volunteers that know what they are doing to
>> get this done.
>>
>
> Presumably because we don't have the necessary access rights.  I don't
> think Collab.net provides a way to import an existing repository.

That's what I suspect. While the whole thing could be in theory
automated, I suspect they are not getting enough conversion requests to
automate that, and so a part of the process must be manual, which always
push up the cost.

> However, if we were to do the first step and convert from CVS to SVN
> and then provide them with the SVN dump, that means less work for
> them.  Would that affect the fee involved?  The fee that Kohsuke
> mentioned is ridiculous, we could rent our own server for years for
> that.

But everything is negotiable, so yes, we can ask.

OK, let me write an e-mail.

--
Kohsuke Kawaguchi
Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]

[Tom Huybrechts]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Kohsuke Kawaguchi
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Daniel Dyer wrote:
>  > On 3/25/08, Jason Chaffee <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  >>
>  >> Any reason why volunteers couldn't do this to save some money?  I know I
>  >> have been down this road before with my company, we switched our entire code
>  >> base from CVS to Subversion a couple of years ago so I don't think it would
>  >> be too difficult for a couple of volunteers that know what they are doing to
>  >> get this done.
>  >>
>  >
>  > Presumably because we don't have the necessary access rights.  I don't
>  > think Collab.net provides a way to import an existing repository.
>
>  That's what I suspect. While the whole thing could be in theory
>  automated, I suspect they are not getting enough conversion requests to
>  automate that, and so a part of the process must be manual, which always
>  push up the cost.
>
>
>  > However, if we were to do the first step and convert from CVS to SVN
>  > and then provide them with the SVN dump, that means less work for
>  > them.  Would that affect the fee involved?  The fee that Kohsuke
>  > mentioned is ridiculous, we could rent our own server for years for
>  > that.
>
>  But everything is negotiable, so yes, we can ask.
>
>  OK, let me write an e-mail.
>

We could point out that Hudson contributors have helped them too by
writing plugins for a number of Collab.net prooducts (Java.net,
Subversion, SFEE)

Tom

>
>
>  --
>  Kohsuke Kawaguchi
>  Sun Microsystems                   [hidden email]
>

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